On holiday with friend and her kids; it's not going well

[GlummyMcGlummerson]

For context, my DD (8)was diagnosed a few weeks ago with a (mild) neurological condition. As part of this she has good days and bad days - good days she’s a normal 8yo with a normal routine, bad days she get dizzy spells, nausea, headaches (usually triggered by noise or bright lights) and sleeps a lot. She’ll have a 1-2 hour nap and then 14-15 hours at night. I am essentially waiting to see if she gets over it on her own before considering treatment, on advice of her doctor.

We (me, DD and 4yo DS) are on week-long UK holiday with my friend and her kids who are the same age as mine, a couple of hours from where we live. My friend’s 8yo - lets call her Emma - is a sensitive child, always has been, my friend has discussed it with me before, but I never gave it too much thought, my own DD can certainly be sensitive. However we are now on day 4 of the holiday, and living in close quarters with them I’ve realised she’s VERY over sensitive and it’s affecting everyone’s enjoyment of the holiday, and more importantly my DD’s condition. Emma is NT.

A few examples
⁃ they were colouring the other day and Emma went slightly over the lines in her picture. She burst into tears, blamed her mum because her mum was talking to me, and cried for half an hour, chucking her paper in the bin
⁃ - they put a “play” on for us the other night and Emma jumbled up for words. She got really upset, sat on the floor sobbing with her arms folded and refused to finish the play, which annoyed DD the others as they wanted to show us.
⁃ She stubbed her toe on the sofa yesterday and had a totally OTT reaction. She grabbed her foot, rolled around on the floor and screamed the most high pitched scream I’ve ever heard, relentlessly, for 20 minutes. I had to take DD out the room as it brought on a headache. If you overheard you’d think she’d have been stabbed. Her toe was fine, no break and no bruise.
⁃ We went for a picnic yesterday and when we packed up we told the kids that they all had to carry something back and we gave Emma the (lightweight) picnic blanket to carry. After a couple of minutes of walking back to the lodge, and heard a shriek. We turned around and she was about 10m away sitting on the ground crying hysterically. She said it was because the blanket was too heavy then we all left her behind. My friend had to carry for uphill back to the lodge and she cried all the way.

It’s lots of little things all the time. As to not drip feed, my friend’s DH has said before (in front of my friend) he thinks Emma’s sensitivity is exacerbated by her mum babying her. I (secretly) agree - she carries her a lot because she “gets tired legs” - such as round the supermarket, or from a restaurant to the car, or out of someone’s house. She also apologises to her a lot where I don’t think it’s necessary - she apologised for “making” her go over the lines when colouring. She also lays with her every night til she falls asleep - singing a lullaby or scratching her back, for about 1-2 hours. Her 4yo goes to sleep alone! The last 3 nights I’ve looked forward to having a bottle of wine with my friend, but she doesn’t usually come down til 10pm from putting Emma to bed. She’s attempted making her fall asleep alone before but had little success.

Anyway DD has been quite good about Emma’s tantrums considering she hasn’t been well, and every day has been a “bad day” for her. But last night when DD started to feel sleepy around 6pm, and Emma wanted her to play a game. DD said no she just wanted to watch a bit of TV, and Emma has a strop and told her mum that DD was a “bad friend”. At that point DD burst into tears and said to me, in front of Emma, that this is a rubbish holiday and Emma is ruining it 😬 well, merry hell broke loose and I took DD to bed to try and diffuse the situation.

Me and my friend had a bottle of wine and a bit of a grumble last night about it all, she said she has a daily struggle with Emma being so sensitive and her DH goes out the house for hours at a time to sit in a car park because he can’t stand the noise.

When I woke DD up today she said that she feels sick all the time and wants to go home . TBH I feel the same way, I’m sick of the shrieking and whilst I feel sorry for my friend it’s making it an unenjoyable holiday.

I figure I have 4 options:
1. Go home - say DD just isn’t well enough (DS is very chilled out and likely wouldn’t mind this but I’m loathe to cut his holiday short)
2. Tell my friend how Emma’s behaviour is affecting DD and ask her to speak to her or step in before it escalates
3. Do more as a family of three separately from the other family and maybe just meet them for dinner
4. Say nothing, they’re kids and will get over it
WWYD?

My friend had/has an Emma.

It's chicken and egg.

She's too laid back and no boundaries and both kids have behaviour issues and are entitled and selfish. But her Emma definitely also has sensory difficulties from young age and now a classic case of someone with ocd. Can't even attend school.

Double edged sword really. The Emma in this case would have had these difficulties anyway as clearly underlying MH and that's a medical condition. But if the adults around her had stepped up and acted correctly I think her chances would have improved in life.

That includes me who would just sit back and accept it because my friend didn't want help and support - or when she did she just wanted to moan about how she couldn't do that.

I have an autistic son with a neurological condition so I can see everyone's POV on this.

But best thing in immediate for Emma (imo) is empathy without enabling.

So for example - the picnic blanket situation. I'd have empathised she's tried, said sorry she felt left behind, said I'd carry blanket when she gets to me to make walking easier.
That's it. No more response to the dramatics. No attention and no carrying or pandering. Emma will benefit from then being left to work out for herself that's a good compromise. I would either walk on in OP situation to leave friend and also give Emma space. Or play close by with my kids while waiting. Or even chat to friend so she can follow though not pandering.

I soon learnt with my friends Emma that's this worked. So we would be doing something and perhaps heading towards park. Her Emma decided she wanted to change plans. Tantrum when told no. Friend would try and change plans. I'd just say ds and I would be carrying on and I'd meet her at x time, when she got to me or whatever was appropriate to day.
Sometimes my friend wouldn't pander as didn't want to go alone and sometimes the Emma would stop because she realise it wouldn't control her situation.

I’d go home too, I definitely wouldn’t start criticising my friend’s parenting.

For those of you saying ‘we all know spoiled NT children like this’ - do we? I know a few overindulged kids but I can’t think of a single one who would be so miserable constantly, even on holiday, for days and days on end, whose parents have to walk on eggshells around them. That does not seem like a happy NT child to me. She may be NT, I’m not attempting to diagnose, but this isn’t the behaviour of a happy child. I think the friend needs support rather than judgement.

Leaving would be very hard on your friend and it will longterm affect your friendship. Sounds like your friend has been open with you that she is struggling with Emma so I would be going all out to be supportive. I would tell my dd privately that Emma is having a difficult time and that you are all going to make the best of the last three days of the holiday. Make some loose plans where you spend some time apart maybe meeting up for lunch or in the evening on one day to give the girls a break from each other.

I’d go home. No wonder her dh sits in car parks.

It’ll end in divorce, no one can live like that forever.

Number 3. Make the evenings as nice as possible. You could lose the friendship over this, which would be a shame.

@wewillmeetagain

My friends son behaves like this and is NT. However he has had a very rocky upbringing with emotional abuse and insecurity among other things. Most of our friendship group can't stand him, he's called spoilt, rude, obnoxious, horrible child ( not to his or his parents faces obviously). I however believe it's just insecurity and his behaviour would improve if he was was helped with his confidence and self esteem.

This saddens me so much.

I find that many people who on the surface act like they’re supportive of children with disabilities or children who have experienced trauma. Many can’t see a link between that and behaviour and cannot show that level of concern or care when a child shows difficult behaviours linked to their needs.

My dd does not have ASD, but was a highly anxious and reactive child. As an adult, she still has anxiety, is still on medication, and has also been diagnosed with a physical condition which is co-morbid with high anxiety levels and depression. Her psychiatrist told her when she was a teen that these factors might never change, but that she will have to use coping techniques and work around them to make a good life for herself. And that was already true when she was 8- except then it was her parents who had to find the coping techniques.

Precisely because she had those issues, she needed very firm, very calm, very upbeat parenting. She needed to know very, very clearly what was simply bad behaviour and what was her anxiety speaking. And she needed to learn techniques for handling her anxiety without making others suffer.

It wasn't "tough love", it was giving her techniques, just as we tried to give her techniques for relieving joint pains and walking without dislocating her ankles. But the underlying principle was to avoid hurting either herself or upsetting others or, indeed, behaving badly. She always knew that that was a goal in its own right. It could be simple things like removing herself from a situation she couldn't handle, finding a polite excuse when things got too much. We worked on it.

I would go home, tbh, and do some nice activities there to make up for the loss of the last few days of holiday. It sounds tough all round but you need to prioritise your own DD.

If it’s any consolation to the various parents of Emma’s, my cousin was a bit like this and she’s an actress now!

She could be a brat, also sounds like traits of ASD. Either way the child needs help not mean comments or judgement from adults.

I have a child very similar to Emma. I would suggest that Emma may not be neurotypical, but obviously she is undiagnosed.
I would go for the option of doing your own thing in the day. Also withdrawing as needed e.g letting DD watch TV on a tablet in your room where Emma is kept at bay.

But if none of those things work/will work explain about your DD feeling unwell and go home. Don’t bring Emma up. I promise you mum knows how hard it is already, she is living with it!

For those of you saying ‘we all know spoiled NT children like this’ - do we? I know a few overindulged kids but I can’t think of a single one who would be so miserable constantly, even on holiday, for days and days on end, whose parents have to walk on eggshells around them. That does not seem like a happy NT child to me.

I've known several kids like this. Their parents just didn't bother parenting. Once they got older though, they started behaving better and less spoilt.

Is 'neurotypical' even an accepted scientific term? It seems like such a bullshit concept to me - that there is such a thing as a 'typical' brain .

I'd present the positive option of giving the children time apart for the day, keep them busy right through to bed time then chat to your friend. Then the following day plan a short activity together again.

It sounds like hard work.

I always come from the assumption that if somebody says they are in pain then they are. Sore legs, heavy blanket, excessive pain from a minor injury, these seem like the tells of an underlying condition. Because she is having this dismissed then she is becoming very anxious/hysterical.

Or she has anxiety and the physical symptoms are manifestations of that? She also may have dyspraxia, ASD, etc.

This does not strike me as a badly patented healthy NT child, and even if it is if does not make her feelings of distress any less real or upsetting just because they are created from poor parenting and not an underlying condition.

She is a child. She is struggling.
Just as you have a child who is struggling.
Don't be so quick to judge!

I was a lot like that as a child, and it took me until adulthood to be diagnosed with anything. A little kindness can go a long way

I have an issue sim

@KeepingPlain

Badly behaved, indulged, babied and spoiled children DO exist. We've all come across them.

No parent wants to hear anymore that they've created a brat from their bad parenting. They just want to hear that it's autism or whatever.

Her mum has reacted very badly to all of her daughters reactions, and it's obvious why. She's the first born child, the most precious one. That's why the second one is actually normal, they weren't treated like that.

I can't imagine any parent actively wants their child to have autism. Many are relieved when a diagnosis is finally given as it usually comes after years of the parent 'knowing' this was the case while be being blamed for their child's difficulties by professionals, partners and other parents. As a formal diagnosis very rarely leads directly to any meaningful support one of the main reasons a lot of parents seem happy to hear it is autism is that it's a validation of your parenting and your instincts. The huge downside is knowing that our kids still have to face all the judgemental,bigoted, ableist crap that that is always spouted on these threads.

I've known several kids like this. Their parents just didn't bother parenting. Once they got older though, they started behaving better and less spoilt.

You knew children who were constantly miserable who’s parents didn’t bother parenting them? Did you phone SS?

Whoops. Similar to your daughters. It is awful to have headaches and feel tired all the time. I'd take her home, otherwise she'll end up needing to recover from the holiday.

Do No. 3, if you think you can. But I suspect Emma will just create at not having 'her friend' there. For your DD's sake, it may have to be No. 1.

I know an Emma too, except that he is a boy. He may get a diagnosis in time; at the moment the prime suspects are ASD/ anxiety. Problem is, his mum does the same as Emma's mum; constantly apologising, caving in to unreasonable demands; always making last minute changes to accommodate him.

Thing is, I am autistic, and I don't know how to tell her that, if he is on the spectrum, all this last minute fannying around and constant changes of plan are literally torturing him. Autistic kids need rules and boundaries more than NT children do.

Go for option 3, if it doesn't work say DD is too poorly and go home. Don't mention Emma's behaviour, the fact the mum warned you about it in advance tells you she is only too aware.
Another for saying I wouldn't be so sure she is NT. I used to work with teens with ASD and ASD in girls is under-diagnosed and masked and the sensory issues are a big sign. Perhaps when you get home you could go for a coffee and have a chat with your friend about getting Emma assessed whether for ASD, anxiety or whatever.
It sounds like your friend could do with some support - her parenting style is probably an attempt to stop things escalating since it's different with her other child. Her own DH is leaving it all to her and she must be at the end of her tether. It sounds like she has been pretty supportive around your DDs needs on holiday and warning you about Emma. Do what you have to do but don't lose a good friend who must feel very alone already.

And all the people saying that used to be called “spoilt brat behaviour” - doesn’t mean it even actually was spoiled brat behaviour. Addison also needs have been notoriously under recognised in the past, particularly in girls.

I think it was asking for trouble spending all day and evening together anyway. Time apart in the day might mean they look forward to seeing each other later.

Thing is, I am autistic, and I don't know how to tell her that, if he is on the spectrum, all this last minute fannying around and constant changes of plan are literally torturing him. Autistic kids need rules and boundaries more than NT children do.

This.

As for children with anxiety, they need someone to believe in them, a kind cheerleader, not an anxious wrapper in cotton wool.

You knew children who were constantly miserable who’s parents didn’t bother parenting them? Did you phone SS?

Why? Because they got vanilla ice cream and not chocolate so decided to scream until their parents did as they were told? Yeah that's a great use of social services time.