Grandfather is being inappropriate around my dc

[Friendsoftheearth]

I feel quite sick writing this post, but I really could do with some guidance and advice.

My father was extremely abusive when I was a child both physically and emotionally. He would tell my brother and I that he does not like children, and only agreed to have them for my mother. I have no happy memories of my childhood with him at all. My mother stayed, she tried to leave a few times but did not in the end. I am very close to my mother.

Fast forward to now. I have a low contact arrangement with my parents. I could not go completely nc because it would mean never seeing my mother again, as she does not drive and it is difficult meeting her on my own as my father is always there (retired)

We did have to go nc for a number of years and it was extremely hard for me, I missed my mother so much. We have started seeing them again, but I am careful to keep the meet ups brief and 'light'. However the last few times my father has taken to saying the following to my teen dc (16 and 14):

What lovely legs they have, shape etc
Weight - asking them how much they weigh - this is a no go area with teen girls in my view even if they are not overweight
Describing one of them as dressed provocatively - his words (She definitely was not it was just a pair of normal shorts)
He forces them to cuddle him, they obviously don't like it
He makes spiteful jokes about their skin and spots - made my dd cry all of the way home
Makes fun of their eyebrows (no idea why)
Comments pretty much non stop on something or anything to do with them. One of them is vegetarian and he went on and on about it.

It took a lot for me to pull him up on his spiteful remarks about their skin, as I still feel some level of fear around him, and his answer was that we being over sensitive and can't take a joke!
My reply is that his 'jokes' are not remotely funny and are causing offence. You can't speak to anyone like that, especially not teenagers. He said we lack a sense of humour and everyone is being too fluffy, and the dds are turning into 'snowflakes'...

Am I being precious and over sensitive?
Am I right to stop him from saying these to my children? They are, by the way great fun most of the time but my carefree girls who usually have easy smiles and cheerful dispositions have grown to mistrust him, and they now look edgy around both of my parents now. The eldest is now refusing to go, I respect that of course.

Where do I go from here?

I love my mother dearly, but can not reach her because he is always there, they live 3 hours away, I can't just drop in. I can't seem to have a relationship with her without having to put up with him. They are talking about visiting again, and I don't want them to. Christmas will be next...

I don't want him anywhere near my children again.

I've no idea how you've both forgiven your mother. She's evil too. You just don't see it.

Don't feel bad. You did everything right.

Many years ago, when my own children were small, I read that some mothers put their children first and some their partner.

Made no sense to me; as far as I'm concerned children come first or there's no point having any! but I have since learned that there are indeed mothers who think this way.

I have even spoken to some, whose rationale is that the kids will grow up and start their own families and leave Mum behind, and all she'll have left is Dad.

Perhaps your mother thought like this? I'm not defending her as I personally find it disgraceful, but if he also bullied her she might have felt too cowed to leave him.

Anyway, you gave Granddad a chance and he blew it, and your mother didn't lift a finger. Learn from it and stay away.

You can still keep in touch with your mother from a distance if she won't meet you without him. That's her choice.

Are beating yourself up for subjecting your girls to the same treatment you had?

Having been in that situation myself, I came to see that in the long run it was good for my children to see what a twat a certain older and possibly idealised relation really was.

A painful but valuable lesson. Sometimes they are the best.

I'm confused.

First of all, I've never been in a similar situation, although I am NC with my dad, so this is an honest question.

Why do you want a relationship with the woman who made you lie about the abuse you had taken and why would you want your daughters to have a relationship with her? Whilst she isn't as bad as him, if she had been half the parent you seem to be, you wouldn't have had the issues you've had to deal with.

You have to stop having any contact with him, and make sure he never sees your daughters. It’s the only possible solution.

You will have to make alternative arrangements to see your mother. It’s very hard - but she has made the choice to stay with an abuser, and you can’t sacrifice your daughters for the sake of your mother.

Dump Dad.

You can phone your mother, write to her, or invite her to visit. So no need to break contact with her.

Tell Mum " Dad makes the girls uncomfortable with very personal remarks about their bodies. We have asked him to stop but he won't. The girls come first, so Dad won't see them again"..

I doubt this will be a huge surprise to your Mum.

OP, you said:

"It makes me furious and angry that he feels he has any right to pass comment liken a leering old man.

This is my Dad for goodness sake. It is awful."

Yes. It is awful. He is a predator. Possibly a sexual predator based on the comments and inappropriate coercion of them to touch him.

If you can, stop referring to him as 'my Dad' in your head, but rather as 'That Abusive Predator'.

The first time my therapist asked me to refer to my abuser (same relationship as your DDs to your father), saying 'incestuous paedophile' suddenly got me past all the 'but I should love him, shouldn't I? Why do I hate him?' questions.

I'm not saying he is sexually abusing your daughters, btw. Just that naming the behaviour in stark terms frees you of a lot of the burden of guilt/obligation/duty.

Good luck. It's a horrible situation to be in, and you have my sympathy. As does you mum, even though she is enabling (subconsciously).

Your mother and father are both abusive. You have everything you wished for as a child. Don't allow them to spoil it. Stop all contact with them. Walk away and enjoy every minute of your life

Why do you want a relationship with the woman who made you lie about the abuse you had taken

In truth, up until a few years ago I idolised my mother, I was raised to see her as the innocent party in a lifetime full of misery. It was my dh, the quietly spoken man who said to me one day why do you always consider your mother to be perfect? He mentioned that I have a 'rosy; view of her that he did not share. I was shocked, angry even but didn't answer him. I thought about it for a long time.

I find it extremely hard to look at my mother's role in this even now.

I don't have any trouble looking at the rest with laser like focus, but when it comes to her, I struggle. I can't do it.

The more I read, the more I struggle with your wish to have a relationship with your mother. She condoned dreadful abuse of you from a very young age, and is now condoning her husband's horrible behaviour towards her grandchildren. I realise that she may have in part had her will ground down by this man's violence towards her, but she has had plenty of opportunities to escape. I suspect you will be better off with both of them out of your life.

However, if you want to keep in touch with your mother, you really need to monitor what she sends your children - not least because some of it may well be coming from your father in reality. If you have the tiniest cause for concern, you need to block her immediately.

I’m sorry, but your mother is just as bad as your father. You need to cut them both off. Your mother didn’t help you when you were a child. I wouldn’t let my children anywhere near them.

He is vile. Stop all contact with your DCs immediately.

I would go no contact with DM too, to be honest. She was surely aware of your father abusing you and did nothing to stop it. That is unforgivable IMO.

My Dad used to say what lovely legs I had and how men like nice legs (I was aged between 6-9 years old) It's now starting to make me wonder 😳

Both of your parents were abusive.

My stomach turns at the thought of calmly cooking dinner whilst my 4-year-old was being beaten on the floor. She could have called 999. She could have left. She could have done a lot of things.

Instead, she forced you to lie. She plays favourites between you and your brother. She cries to deflect blame. She will ALWAYS sacrifice you and your daughters to appease your father.

I wish you well with the counselling. I would also think carefully about any type of relationship with them, at all.

I wish some people would read the OP's posts...

@Friendsoftheearth

I'm not sure that you're looking for the right therapist. It seems to me that you really are doing a good job with your DDs. But you're not doing one for yourself.

I'm sorry, I know your mum was a victim, but it seems to be that at best she was a coward and at worst, complicit.

I think the way she treated you was appalling. From some of the posts I've read from abused women on here, even if they are still with their abuser they protect their children and if the abuse starts on them then they're gone. Your mother managed to protect your brother and didn't even try to protect you.

I think you need to unpick all of that with a really good counsellor. I think you need your mother out of your life too.

Oh my word, what a horrific childhood you had, and how horribly you were treated by both parents - they both sound like monsters, just in different ways. I am in awe of how well you have broken free of the past though, and how strong you clearly are. Good on you for recognizing that all contact between your kids and your father needs to stop. Your mother, for whatever reason, has made her choices in life, and if that results in her never seeing her grandchildren again, then so be it.

I don't honestly know how she stood by and let him hurt small toddlers.

My first memories are of his violence. I was tiny, too small to understand his anger and I remember feeling confused because I couldn't understand what I had done wrong.

The police would come sometimes, they would stand and be huge in the doorway into the lounge looking at me, everyone would be appeasing the police officers - my mother with tea. My father blaming us for playing up, and it was nothing. My auntie and uncle would then arrive to console my mother as she would cry because she was embarrassed.

It would didn't change anything.

You, and your mother, have been conditioned for years by a n abusive bully. He trained you to let him get away with it.

You've learned the hard way that he won't change so you have to. 

Your mum now has to learn the same lesson , taught by you.

 Lay it straight on the line. We love you, we want to stay in touch.  That means you have to back our decision to the hilt and never ever do anything to undermine it   by  pleading to the girls on his behalf,   making his excuses  etc.

What an insidious creep. Your only concern here should be to protect your kids. You're right - it can't continue. But the only way is to step up to the plate and cut ties with these vile people.

My brother is alcoholic and is constantly low level aggressive and sweary - the very worst swears C words the lot in front of my children. I've gone from getting stressed to NC when they were littler.

Now the kids are bigger my method is to avoid him as much as possible but when we are around him to almost have a family joke about it - how long til he swears/says something stupid/accuses someone - we roll our eyes and laugh at him and it's taken all the power from him if you see what I mean.

Avoid him as much as possible of course because he does sound horrible but if unavoidable have a bingo card with your girls next time you go - weight/creepy comment/something mean. If you can raise an eyebrow at each other and stifle a laugh - I promise you it'll hit home harder than a tense silence and tears. These arseholes are drama queens! Good luck x

If he questions it you can say you were having a bet about how long it would be before he said something inappropriate.

💐 OP
I’m in the reversed position, my mother was/is my abuser, my father never, ever intervened and now she’s too frail to be physically abusive (still has a razor sharp tongue however), she’s 94yrs old ffs, he’s being shown to be an abuser, emotionally and financially, towards her.

I’m 66, and it’s taken to recently before I acknowledged and truly recognised what bloody awful childhood I had.

FOG every damn inch of the way. Only now have I told DH a little about my childhood and he was shocked.

Please don’t think she’ll change or he reform, abusers don’t, they adapt their approach as they age.

Ugh. Very frightening. Can you & your DH drive there & your DH distracts/keeps your father in the house for a number of hours - by force if need be while you take your mum out for lunch?

If so then you take your Mum out & you very kindly tell her everything here. All of it. And you explain that there is no way you can subject your children to him & one way or another if she wants to see you all that she needs to part or visit seperately. Go armed with information on how a divorce would work financially & what practical support you could give her (eg can you get her housed while their house is being sold?). It will be extremely difficult for her to her but she needs honesty.

Sometimes women snap. Its bad enough that he was a pig to you & her but she could lose her GC. That might be enough to do it. You are about to make that decision anyway - so she needs to know why you are doing it & how she can see her GC rather than lose them all together.

Get her out before he gets sick & she feels guilty. If you can. If not she needs to visit WITHOUT him.

@Friendsoftheearth

I don't honestly know how she stood by and let him hurt small toddlers.

My first memories are of his violence. I was tiny, too small to understand his anger and I remember feeling confused because I couldn't understand what I had done wrong.

The police would come sometimes, they would stand and be huge in the doorway into the lounge looking at me, everyone would be appeasing the police officers - my mother with tea. My father blaming us for playing up, and it was nothing. My auntie and uncle would then arrive to console my mother as she would cry because she was embarrassed.

It would didn't change anything.

There is that too. She let him do this. She needs to know that you will NOT let him do it to your children. This is her chance to make the right decision.

This is horrific. I'm afraid I think your mum is as bad as your dad. She basically made you the scape goat because your dad didn't hit your brother or your mum later on. It was all on you and they were happy to stand by. Disgusting. And she's guilted you all into keeping the peace and keeping her happy. She is very complicit, and her crying makes sure that you can't ever address it with her. Poor her, the victim. But actually that's not the case is it? She's the one telling you to put up and shut up, and far, far worse, sacrifice your children to this dynamic.

I'm afraid I'd go NC with her too. The minute she starts guilt tripping your DC would be the end for me. I bet she's going to minimise what your dad did and said. They'll think they got it wrong. That they have to put up with Grandpa to see Grandma because they're who she's living for. If they say no, they'll be responsible for her misery. So toxic.

She is emotionally abusive IMO, and certainly complicit in your abuse.

I haven't even touched on how she treated you vs. your brother. That in itself is really abusive.

Your parents are "supposed" to love you. So when one is actually outright abusive, it is natural to cling to the hope that the other parent isn't bad. I know where you're coming from - DM was emotionally abusive, and DF, who we adored, was the "good parent". Except with the help of a counsellor I've come to understand that neither was doing what a good parent should. If the non-abusive partner doesn't actively get the children out of that situation, they are complicit in the abuse.

The cycle is repeating, as others have pointed out, except this time you would be the complicit partner if you allowed this horrible man to continue to have access to your daughters. They would suffer not just the damage from his horrible bullying and sexual comments, but also the emotional damage specifically from the failure of you, their mother, to protect them.

I would never let this man near them again, and explain why to the girls and your mother. Your DM lost her chance when she failed to protect you, but if you really want to give her another chance then you could say only she can join you for a trip to a cafe or something, definitely neutral ground. If she turns up with your 'D'F then you leave immediately. She'll learn.

But you will need a supportive counsellor to help you work through all this.