Grandfather is being inappropriate around my dc

[Friendsoftheearth]

I feel quite sick writing this post, but I really could do with some guidance and advice.

My father was extremely abusive when I was a child both physically and emotionally. He would tell my brother and I that he does not like children, and only agreed to have them for my mother. I have no happy memories of my childhood with him at all. My mother stayed, she tried to leave a few times but did not in the end. I am very close to my mother.

Fast forward to now. I have a low contact arrangement with my parents. I could not go completely nc because it would mean never seeing my mother again, as she does not drive and it is difficult meeting her on my own as my father is always there (retired)

We did have to go nc for a number of years and it was extremely hard for me, I missed my mother so much. We have started seeing them again, but I am careful to keep the meet ups brief and 'light'. However the last few times my father has taken to saying the following to my teen dc (16 and 14):

What lovely legs they have, shape etc
Weight - asking them how much they weigh - this is a no go area with teen girls in my view even if they are not overweight
Describing one of them as dressed provocatively - his words (She definitely was not it was just a pair of normal shorts)
He forces them to cuddle him, they obviously don't like it
He makes spiteful jokes about their skin and spots - made my dd cry all of the way home
Makes fun of their eyebrows (no idea why)
Comments pretty much non stop on something or anything to do with them. One of them is vegetarian and he went on and on about it.

It took a lot for me to pull him up on his spiteful remarks about their skin, as I still feel some level of fear around him, and his answer was that we being over sensitive and can't take a joke!
My reply is that his 'jokes' are not remotely funny and are causing offence. You can't speak to anyone like that, especially not teenagers. He said we lack a sense of humour and everyone is being too fluffy, and the dds are turning into 'snowflakes'...

Am I being precious and over sensitive?
Am I right to stop him from saying these to my children? They are, by the way great fun most of the time but my carefree girls who usually have easy smiles and cheerful dispositions have grown to mistrust him, and they now look edgy around both of my parents now. The eldest is now refusing to go, I respect that of course.

Where do I go from here?

I love my mother dearly, but can not reach her because he is always there, they live 3 hours away, I can't just drop in. I can't seem to have a relationship with her without having to put up with him. They are talking about visiting again, and I don't want them to. Christmas will be next...

I don't want him anywhere near my children again.

You are going the right way now, well done.

No there are no circumstances under which it would be OK for your girls to have to see him again. At some point they will be independent and they can go and see him themselves - or not. Now, it's your decision, and do not facilitate contact.

Maybe lack of contact with the girls will be the final straw that makes your mum see the light. Who knows. Don't count on it though. She is held by fear of hte unknown but only she can make the decision to defy that.

@ukgift2016

Stop contact, inappropriate and unacceptable behaviour.

On your mother, it is her choice to stay and it is her choice to not have a relationship she may have wanted her daughter/grandchildren.

Completely agree

A useful incident to remind her of when she boo-hoos ... trust me, she won't have forgotten she definitely hasn't forgotten, but she tells me this is how things used to be. I am lucky because my father just used his fists and my cousin was hit with a belt.

I was very careful who became the father of my children as a result. It had to be someone gentle and kind, or it was just not happening.

I'd go NC. Your mother is making a choice to not be in your life if she cannot see you without him. Surely she could walk to the end of the road and you pick her up to spend time with you without him there?

Your mother did not protect you from his abusive ways, please don't let the pattern continue and allow him to continue his cruelness with your children when they don't need to be put through it. Whether it is sexually inappropriate or not, all of it is inappropriate.

If I as much as mention the past she starts crying, so it is not really possible to have a proper conversation about it, she either justifies it as part of the times or cries.

He was a bully and bullied us all, he used to hit her too for a few years. I don't hold anyone responsible but him, but yes she was complicit.

Your main responsibibity is to protect your daughters from this man. They are oold enough to stay at home while ypu travel to see your mother.

I have had more support and love from this thread than I have in forty six years. It is very hard to talk about this in real life to even close friends. My oldest friends obviously know. My newer friends do not, as I did not everything tainted by my childhood. So it is something now hidden mostly.

I really am quite sure of the direction we will take now, and it has been invaluable to me, really it has.

If your Mum loves your children as much as she says she will fully support you in making sure this man never sees them again. She will put their needs ahead of her own. If she is too weak or needy to do that you will have to be the one that protects them.

You need to put your children first and protect them from him. If this means not seeing your mother that’s on her not you.

Dont expose your kids to this shit. Visit them alone. God he is a disgusting vile pig isnt he. Your poor mum. Is there really no way you can't see her on her own?

I have just read all of this thread and I am appalled. I understand that it would have been difficult (due to the times) for your Mum to leave your Dad, but had she'd been honest when your bruises appeared she would have been helped, there were refuges around then.
And your brother, how is he? Did he forgive you for the lies, does he have a relationship now with your parents?

Am I right in thinking you were born in 1974?
If that is right then no way was it "just the times" as your mother says. I'v been involved in child protection one way or another sine the mid seventies and the this was not considered acceptable even then. Witness the looks on other parents faces.
During counselling it might also help to look at the role your mother played. I'm sure this might be painful but probably necessary for resolution.

I think you know what you need to do. I am still cross with my parents for having poor boundaries with their parents and families in some areas, and it was nowhere near as bad as this.

If you need some resources to look to the future consider reading up on consent conscious homes or sex positive families to help you enable good boundaries for your daughters and family, and support future relationships.

I just wanted to say I’m so sorry to hear what you went through with your father. He truly is a vile, abusive and disgusting excuse for a man. You are completely doing the right thing in keeping your daughters away from him.
The abuse you suffered along with your brother at his hands is extremely distressing to read, so I can’t imagine what it must have been like for you actually living through it.
You were failed by the school and social services. But you were also failed by your mother. Yes she was/is being abused and controlled, but she still stood by for all those years and did nothing to protect you and your brother and made you lie to cover for him.
If you feel able to continue having a relationship with your mother do so but you need to keep away from your father at all costs. I would suggest you wait outside in the car to take her out for lunch or you meet round at her sisters or something. You should not have to spend a second in his presence ever again. When you make arrangements with your mother make it very clear you will not be having any contact with him.

I am so glad you have your lovely daughters and DH and a good group of friends. Further therapy sounds like a good plan. (BTW I can’t believe that counsellor gave you such awful advice, I hope the next one is much better).
I wish you the very best for the future OP.

I’m in a similar situation. My grandad used to hold me down on his lap and sort of rub me around his crotch area while “hugging” me. I told my mum and she didn’t seem to care all that much. She made me tell my nan which I did but they said I must have been making it up so I ignored it and tried to forget about it into my adulthood. I suppose it was hard to confront him (he’s very scary and was physically abusive) and would have meant my mum would have had no babysitter and wouldn’t be able to go out mid-week like she seemed to like to do (we were at my dad’s every Friday afternoon to Sunday night so god knows why).
I now have children of my own. While pregnant with my first I made the decision that I have to be stronger and keep them safe which meant cutting contact with my grandad altogether and really limiting contact with my Nan and mum who allowed it to happen. My children are also not allowed to be looked after by my mum because I don’t trust her to keep them safe.
It’s hard and I do get the odd guilt trip now and again but I know I’m doing the right thing by my children. The guilt you feel as an abused child is crazy and stays with you into adulthood. It’s a cycle I had to break for my children.

If this were me i would book a premier inn type room to stay overnight , i would collect my mother to spend time alone with me /grand daughters then return her home .
He has done enough to you alone even before your daughters to justify cutting him out of your lives .
What a vile man , the sexual tones are enough alone !.
I bet your mom will breath a sigh of relief to spend time with you all without his presence.
He would not be seeing my kids again no matter what .
I hope you work something out .

@Friendsoftheearth

A useful incident to remind her of when she boo-hoos ... trust me, she won't have forgotten she definitely hasn't forgotten, but she tells me this is how things used to be. I am lucky because my father just used his fists and my cousin was hit with a belt.

I was very careful who became the father of my children as a result. It had to be someone gentle and kind, or it was just not happening.

Unless you are over 60 @Friendsoftheearth it is not how things used to be. It was back in the old days but I am presuming you were born later than that. Your DM is an enabler to a monster.

OP, can I have some clarity?

You don't explicitely state that your father physically abused your mother; your OP in fact reads as though your father physically abused you (and your brother, and now your daughters), but noy her. You mention him hitting you and leaving bruises several times but never mention him hitting your mother. Did he physically abuse her, or was his abuse of her limited to emotional, or verbal?

I ask because what you have recounted of her behaviours, attitudes and responses positively reeks of abuse enabler, not merely 'cowed domestic violence victim'. She comes across as extremely manipulative and self-serving, and toxic in her own right.

I strongly recommend the following books:

Toxic Parents - Dr. Susan Forward
The gift of fear - Gavin de Becker
Protecting the gift - also de Becker (particularly relevant to your current situation)
Why does he do that - Lundy Bancroft (useful for identifying abusive and manipulative tactics, unpicking toxic dynamics/cycles and calibrating one's 'normal meter' as it relates to red flags)

as you describe them, posi

Ignore last sentence

I am afraid the relationship with my brother is strained. He finds it impossible to talk about our childhood, and it is the elephant in the room. He idolises my mother (we all did) and he will never accept that any of this is her fault. He has since had some counselling because he was suffering from poor mental health, and has had more than one breakdown. Nonetheless he has carved out a family life, and seems to be coping.
We had a weird dynamic of golden child in addition to the violence, because my mother openly and publicly would say he was her favourite because he was so beautiful and intelligent - he was a very sweet little boy, she considered him a genius and asked for him to be IQ tested at school etc. She was very honest about it, even to our family and friends.
If anyone was going to get a beating it was certainly not going to be him, and she moved heaven and earth to protect him, and always has. He was the milky bar child, the special one. It was difficult to see him struggle with the weight of her love and expectation, and when he failed most of his exams and did not become the genius she thought him to be, it made him bitter and angry. It has been a very difficult almost treacherous relationship.
Least of all because my brother was big enough to stop my father from hitting me once we became teenagers, but he never did intervened, not once.

If I as much as mention the past she starts crying, so it is not really possible to have a proper conversation about it, she either justifies it as part of the times or cries

Yes I expected this, but the point is you don't need a "conversation" about it - just to tell her, and if she cries she cries

The point is that your mother's made choices and choices have consequences. You've had enough hurt for a lifetime at their hands, and as you very wisely recognise it's now time to step back and leave them to the hell they've created

One small suggestion I'd make is that, if you do want to meet up with her somewhere, it could be worth doing it in a neutral space. There's just a chance she could use anything more "personal" as an opportunity to offload a "poor me" narrative, and if you prefer to walk away that neutral space would make this easier

You don't explicitely state that your father physically abused your mother; your OP in fact reads as though your father physically abused you

When I was very small I remember my father hitting my mother in the hallway near our bedrooms, almost every weekend we would cower in our rooms and they would be fighting in the hallway.

We would scream and shout for him to stop, or try and stop him but he would then come after us. I remember my mother hitting him back sometimes. He then put a lock on our bedroom doors, it was very high up, so he could lock us in for being naughty or keep us out of the way when they would fight. Or just to lock me away. I was scared of being in there even with my toys as the windows had locks as well. It felt like a prison at times.

Overnight their fights seem to stop, but he continued to hit my brother and I. He would hit me far far more than my brother, my mother would cover for my brother. She would lie for him. Over the years as my brother grew bigger he did not hit my brother at all but continued until I was 14 years old. By that time I had decided enough was enough, and would use whatever I could to stop him (the last time being a lamp) I could have killed him, but I had to do something.

I left home shortly after that, and lived in London and then overseas for a number of years. The liberation of escaping. I worry alot for people like me in lockdown I really do.

Your father is clearly vile but your mother is not far behind him. She enabled your father's physical abuse and added some emotional abuse in of her own for good measure. I would not be surprised if much of this 'we come as a package' comes from her and not your father. She will try and manipulate you to see her AND your father.

I would start thinking about your relationship with your mother and her behaviour over the years, I think this has gone unexamined due to the nightmare that is your father. However, to anyone else, looking at her behaviour alone she would be deemed an abusive parent.

whatever you do, don't allow her to move in with you! I think you would see a different (and more unpleasant) side to this woman.

Having said that, you have done amazingly well to make your life a success with all that you have had to deal with.

Your mother will sob and wail and excuse herself. She is a toxic party to abuse. So write her a letter or send an email telling her how it is and why. No room for negotiation. This is all on your terms - you can totally call the shots now.