Grandfather is being inappropriate around my dc

[Friendsoftheearth]

I feel quite sick writing this post, but I really could do with some guidance and advice.

My father was extremely abusive when I was a child both physically and emotionally. He would tell my brother and I that he does not like children, and only agreed to have them for my mother. I have no happy memories of my childhood with him at all. My mother stayed, she tried to leave a few times but did not in the end. I am very close to my mother.

Fast forward to now. I have a low contact arrangement with my parents. I could not go completely nc because it would mean never seeing my mother again, as she does not drive and it is difficult meeting her on my own as my father is always there (retired)

We did have to go nc for a number of years and it was extremely hard for me, I missed my mother so much. We have started seeing them again, but I am careful to keep the meet ups brief and 'light'. However the last few times my father has taken to saying the following to my teen dc (16 and 14):

What lovely legs they have, shape etc
Weight - asking them how much they weigh - this is a no go area with teen girls in my view even if they are not overweight
Describing one of them as dressed provocatively - his words (She definitely was not it was just a pair of normal shorts)
He forces them to cuddle him, they obviously don't like it
He makes spiteful jokes about their skin and spots - made my dd cry all of the way home
Makes fun of their eyebrows (no idea why)
Comments pretty much non stop on something or anything to do with them. One of them is vegetarian and he went on and on about it.

It took a lot for me to pull him up on his spiteful remarks about their skin, as I still feel some level of fear around him, and his answer was that we being over sensitive and can't take a joke!
My reply is that his 'jokes' are not remotely funny and are causing offence. You can't speak to anyone like that, especially not teenagers. He said we lack a sense of humour and everyone is being too fluffy, and the dds are turning into 'snowflakes'...

Am I being precious and over sensitive?
Am I right to stop him from saying these to my children? They are, by the way great fun most of the time but my carefree girls who usually have easy smiles and cheerful dispositions have grown to mistrust him, and they now look edgy around both of my parents now. The eldest is now refusing to go, I respect that of course.

Where do I go from here?

I love my mother dearly, but can not reach her because he is always there, they live 3 hours away, I can't just drop in. I can't seem to have a relationship with her without having to put up with him. They are talking about visiting again, and I don't want them to. Christmas will be next...

I don't want him anywhere near my children again.

These threads boil my blood. You may miss your mum but get a back bone and protect your child. No more contact.

Well done for finding a counsellor op. I think you need to brace yourself though, you are going to have to address the issue with your mum. She was as abusive, in a very different way, but it's still there.

Even now you say if you raise it with her, she'll cry, and make you feel bad. Classic deflection. She's as bad.

I wouldn't be able to have a relationship with either of them.

I do get it too- I had an awful childhood. Dad was an alcoholic and mum wouldn't leave him. If I say anything to her she just said she gave us a good childhood and did her best. Complete denial about her role and complicity. I will never forgive her. She has some kind of hero complex with her friends for sticking by him which doesn't help. It makes me sick to my core. She takes absolutely no responsibility and instead I'm called highly strung and all my teenage rages were out down to being difficult and hormones.

It's taken years of therapy to get me to unpick it all, it was bloody awful when I could see it for the first time what the situation really was. I was raging with her. I also had pressure to conceal things from outside authorities too.

All the best to you.

Your children need to go nc with your dad. That behaviour is completely inappropriate, and unacceptable. Do not subject them to that.
What you do regarding your relationships with your mum and dad are entirely up to you to decide, but your children need protecting and keeping away.

He's started wanting her. He wants a mum

First of all I must make it clear that you are absolutely doing the right thing keeping your children and yourself, and possibly your dh away from this woman. You have identified correctly that she will damage all of you, and the only way is to stay away from her.

I am just going to say how it feels though to go through a bereavement when a parent is STILL living is extremely painful, at times agonising. To know they are just there, you could hold them, be close to them because the maternal bond is so very deep and strong, it is so hard to break away entirely.

You are effectively an orphan with a living parent, and some small part of you craves for a parent. Particularly at times of stress, christmas, happy milestones - many times will trigger the pain within your dh. He has to hold his side of the bargain, but don't imagine for a second that this is easy to do, he will have moments of real doubt, when the loss overwhelms him. If his mother had died you would show him kindness and empathy, please extend that to him whilst he goes through this. In some ways a physical death is almost easier. If you have a parent and they have died, most people would give anything to see that parent again. This feeling happens over and over again. It is very very hard.

If you make it less about a choice between you and her perhaps, and more about gently supporting the decision he has made ( choosing you and the children), and recognising that he will be in great pain at times, and being there for him when he feels low about his mother, then your chances of keeping that woman out of your life and your dh still with you will be much higher.

Sure she could go out and meet you, if needed you could pick her up and drive somewhere now everything is reopening.

@Friendsoftheearth

He's started wanting her. He wants a mum

First of all I must make it clear that you are absolutely doing the right thing keeping your children and yourself, and possibly your dh away from this woman. You have identified correctly that she will damage all of you, and the only way is to stay away from her.

I am just going to say how it feels though to go through a bereavement when a parent is STILL living is extremely painful, at times agonising. To know they are just there, you could hold them, be close to them because the maternal bond is so very deep and strong, it is so hard to break away entirely.

You are effectively an orphan with a living parent, and some small part of you craves for a parent. Particularly at times of stress, christmas, happy milestones - many times will trigger the pain within your dh. He has to hold his side of the bargain, but don't imagine for a second that this is easy to do, he will have moments of real doubt, when the loss overwhelms him. If his mother had died you would show him kindness and empathy, please extend that to him whilst he goes through this. In some ways a physical death is almost easier. If you have a parent and they have died, most people would give anything to see that parent again. This feeling happens over and over again. It is very very hard.

If you make it less about a choice between you and her perhaps, and more about gently supporting the decision he has made ( choosing you and the children), and recognising that he will be in great pain at times, and being there for him when he feels low about his mother, then your chances of keeping that woman out of your life and your dh still with you will be much higher.

I'm trying to be nice here because it appears you are making progress.

But no. I tolerated and soothed and comforted for a long time. And I am done.
I matter.

So it absolutely is a choice between me and her. He can't have his mum and his wife.

And that's not my problem anymore.

It not my fault that she was dysfunctional and absolve. It's not my fault that he needs to take responsibility for his mother and should really be protecting his family from her.

You and him failed massively in protecting the families you chose to make from dysfunction and abuse that they did not choose.

You both chose to get married and have children so the responsibility of your past is yours to work through. I will always support him in cutting her off.
But any noise at all about wanting her in his and our children lives will always be met with harsh realities.

I do not give a shit if that upsets him. He must the go and be a good person and find the coping strategies to deal with that upset.

I've just read the whole thread. Thank you so much for posting your story, everything you've said, and all the supportive posts have brought a lot of clarity to my own situation.

"It’s the loneliest existence, when you learn so young that no one will come to protect you'

I'd never realized this before. It's so true.

Sorry for invading your thread

Friendsoftheearth what an extraordinary good description of how it is to be estranged from a living parent (I am). When the hard, hard decision is made to step away, you never stop longing for them, you never stop wanting arms around you in hard times and knowing that your parent will be on your side. I've never stopped longing for my beloved adoptive mother (deceased when I was 12) and my father (still living, estranged when he married the stepmother). Both are/were traumatic, but the estrangement is the hardest to handle. Death is clean.

@OliviaBenson

I had an almost identical situation in my childhood and teenage years and really second your advice. My mum was badly abused by my dad, she was a victim. But now, both my parents - and particularly my mum - completely gaslight me. It was all my fault. I was such a difficult teenager. My mum asked me if I wanted her to divorce my dad and I said no, so I can’t complain. It wasn’t as bad as I’m making out. I’m so ungrateful for everything they did for me. All my achievements are down to them.

I don’t want to victim-blame, but it’s perfectly possible for someone to be both a victim and an abuser - it happens all the time.

You and him failed massively in protecting the families you chose to make from dysfunction I think we have succeeded if we are able to stand by our children and stop the cycle. So I disagree on that point.
Sometimes we will have moments of weakness, and sometimes regret and pain - and want a hug from our mothers from time to time despite it all. If we hold it together, and grit our teeth through the pain, then I think that is a win. I can sense your anger in your post, and I am sorry it has been so difficult for you, and for him.

You both chose to get married and have children so the responsibility of your past is yours

Yes it is, and it is a responsibility I take very seriously. I didn't want children initially for the reasons you have outlined.

Some You are definitely not invading the thread, you are absolutely most welcome - I am sorry it is your experience too, but there appears to be many of us x

@Friendsoftheearth

You and him failed massively in protecting the families you chose to make from dysfunction I think we have succeeded if we are able to stand by our children and stop the cycle. So I disagree on that point. Sometimes we will have moments of weakness, and sometimes regret and pain - and want a hug from our mothers from time to time despite it all. If we hold it together, and grit our teeth through the pain, then I think that is a win. I can sense your anger in your post, and I am sorry it has been so difficult for you, and for him.

You both chose to get married and have children so the responsibility of your past is yours

Yes it is, and it is a responsibility I take very seriously. I didn't want children initially for the reasons you have outlined.

Some You are definitely not invading the thread, you are absolutely most welcome - I am sorry it is your experience too, but there appears to be many of us x

Your daughter cried in the car all the way home because your father verbally abused her. You have admitted that your mother manipulates them over text.

How have you stopped the cycle?

But for a large part of your children’s childhood - they have endured him.

Also. My husband hasn't really stopped anything. If I allowed it he would have my children and his mother in a beautiful reunion asap. I have not allowed the dysfunction to continue.

Which again. Leads me to ask. Where is your husband? Is he happy with this? Because I wouldn't been issuing you with ultimatums after the car Incident.

I think what you’re planning is Incredibly positive
But I think you need to grasp that your children are approaching woman hood and not to underestimate what they’ve already endured because you are choosing to break the cycle now

sea Losing a parent that is still alive feels like a taboo. If you tell your friends you are overwhelmed with the loss of your parent and are feeling so sad, most will tell you to give her a ring/go and see her. Life is too short.
So you can't actually share the experience and the loss with many people, because so few will understand (because they have normal parents and can't imagine any reason why you would need to cut your parents off in the first place) or they understand your reason and have no solution, because there is no solution is there? It is a living death, with all the same emotions and feelings bound up with bereavement.

So carry this huge burden of pain and loss in near silence.

Loss is loss, and however you deal with it, it is painful. So painful.

I am really sorry you are going through this sea hugs for you because we all need one today.

How have you stopped the cycle? Yes I think so, we never see him and have only seen him once in many years.

But for a large part of your children’s childhood - they have endured him

No, they absolutely haven't endured him for most of their childhood. We have hardly seen him in the last ten/fifteen years, were nc for half of that, and for the rest of the time only saw my mother. My children have no relationship with him at all. My mother had a milestone birthday celebration, so after so long we made a decision to see him, and that is when the last thing happened. I gave him a second chance. It was mistake, and it will not be happening again.

Well then I’m struggling to see what big change you’ll be making to “break the cycle” with him?

* However the last few times my father has taken to saying the following to my teen dc (16 and 14):*

So is it “once”?

* my carefree girls who usually have easy smiles and cheerful dispositions have grown to mistrust him, and they now look edgy around both of my parents now. The eldest is now refusing to go, I respect that of course.*

This is not something that would have developed with very infrequent and sporadic visits

way I have already broken the cycle many years ago.
I thought after so many years of not seeing him, I thought he may have changed, as it turns out he hasn't. Not one bit. So we will go back to how it was i.e. never seeing him.

If the cycle had continued I guess we would see him every week, and he would be allowed to continue - that is not the case.

* But stop patting yourself on the back and burying your head in the sand. *

This.

We saw him briefly at a family party last year, I did not know they would be there, so it was extremely difficult when we arrived, we did not stay for long. Some family members, my aunt especially were keen to get 'things patched up'. He wasn't great then towards us, but not as offensive as he was the last time we saw him.

The children do not relaxed even with my mother way. My mother stayed with us a lot when they were younger, she was lovely with my girls, she played amazing games and taught them how to sew etc. They were very close to her for much of their childhood. w

We don't see my mother much, maybe a few times a year and something has changed, they are no longer happy to see her. I am not sure if it is their age or whether they hold her responsible in some ways for my treatment, now being older and better able to understand it.
Without being too outing, there was a serious medical issue that happened to me last year, and my mother didn't even phone me, so they haven't really got over that. I had hoped they could have a friendship with mother, even if I could not allow them to see my father.