Grandfather is being inappropriate around my dc

[Friendsoftheearth]

I feel quite sick writing this post, but I really could do with some guidance and advice.

My father was extremely abusive when I was a child both physically and emotionally. He would tell my brother and I that he does not like children, and only agreed to have them for my mother. I have no happy memories of my childhood with him at all. My mother stayed, she tried to leave a few times but did not in the end. I am very close to my mother.

Fast forward to now. I have a low contact arrangement with my parents. I could not go completely nc because it would mean never seeing my mother again, as she does not drive and it is difficult meeting her on my own as my father is always there (retired)

We did have to go nc for a number of years and it was extremely hard for me, I missed my mother so much. We have started seeing them again, but I am careful to keep the meet ups brief and 'light'. However the last few times my father has taken to saying the following to my teen dc (16 and 14):

What lovely legs they have, shape etc
Weight - asking them how much they weigh - this is a no go area with teen girls in my view even if they are not overweight
Describing one of them as dressed provocatively - his words (She definitely was not it was just a pair of normal shorts)
He forces them to cuddle him, they obviously don't like it
He makes spiteful jokes about their skin and spots - made my dd cry all of the way home
Makes fun of their eyebrows (no idea why)
Comments pretty much non stop on something or anything to do with them. One of them is vegetarian and he went on and on about it.

It took a lot for me to pull him up on his spiteful remarks about their skin, as I still feel some level of fear around him, and his answer was that we being over sensitive and can't take a joke!
My reply is that his 'jokes' are not remotely funny and are causing offence. You can't speak to anyone like that, especially not teenagers. He said we lack a sense of humour and everyone is being too fluffy, and the dds are turning into 'snowflakes'...

Am I being precious and over sensitive?
Am I right to stop him from saying these to my children? They are, by the way great fun most of the time but my carefree girls who usually have easy smiles and cheerful dispositions have grown to mistrust him, and they now look edgy around both of my parents now. The eldest is now refusing to go, I respect that of course.

Where do I go from here?

I love my mother dearly, but can not reach her because he is always there, they live 3 hours away, I can't just drop in. I can't seem to have a relationship with her without having to put up with him. They are talking about visiting again, and I don't want them to. Christmas will be next...

I don't want him anywhere near my children again.

I've come back to this thread OP and hope that your therapist will be able to help you to unpick your feelings around your traumatic childhood.

It will be painful at times and I think you will probably look at your DM in a different light. However, I believe that the journey will be worth it as you are carrying around a huge burden of emotions of that little girl inside you. Hopefully in time you will be able to reflect and accept what has happened to you but move forward as an adult with stronger resolutions towards your parents. Whatever you do regarding your DM remember that your needs and your DD's needs should now come first and you might need to keep distance between you and your DM or even NC.

I am just googling EDMR

IME (I am a qualified medical hypnotherapist, though I haven't practised for some years) this is a VERY effective way of dealing with trauma. I don't know why, but it is. I think it interrupts the associations between memory and emotion. Tapping Therapy is also very effective, for similar reasons.

Both are simple, say to learn and cheap (ie free) to do.

There was (is) a thread on the Relationships board that asked why women put up with abuse.

Everyone was so quick to state that this was 'victim blaming' and the question rather should be 'why do men abuse'. The woman had no responsibility 'cos abused etc etc.

This is how a very real, important and valid question gets smothered by allegations of 'blame' and all sorts of woke shit

I agree with this, too.

Manipulative, bullying men effectively cause a form of Stockholm Syndrome in their partners, so that they can neither see the abuse nor fight it - even many years afterwards, and even if they are out of the relationship. The emotions attached to the situation/man are so deep-rooted and so paralysing that they can prevent effective functioning.

These poor women effectively need to be de-programmed. It is no more their fault that it is the fault of someone who is brainwashed (it is brainwashing). However, that doesn't mean that they can be allowed affect innocent lives.

She did a LOT of covering, I wonder if your Mum did too (I have no idea, might be worth thinking about)

I am sorry this has happened to you stripey you sound in a good place now though. Your comment about my mother covering for me, you could be right, she may well have saved me from the worst of it for all I know. It is quite hard to know for sure as a child.

Yes and perhaps if she had left we would have been in more danger, although I don't think he would have bothered to see us given how much he detested being a parent. Maybe she could have got a restraining order? A court order? Given the number of times the police were called, the schools' concerns, the neighbours would have been witnesses....but maybe this was just beyond her at the time. Knowing how to access help, knowing how to keep us alive and in one piece. I think she was too scared to leave for a time. After a while she gave up on the idea as it was easier to stay and her hold saying 'it is better the devil you know'

It is better now we have helplines, charities and a more sympathetic police force. It is still far from perfect, under resourced and not the national priority it should be.

I am dreading seeing the therapist a little, I don't want my life to fall apart if I can't deal with talking about it

I understand, Friends; it's a brave thing to do, but also incredibly worthwhile and IME you'll find a decent counsellor very skilled in helping you to get things out at your pace. Nobody's going to bully you into anything you're not ready for, but it's in bringing things to the surface that you'll learn to see them for what they are, deal with them and eventually put them to one side

You're clearly a very intelligent and articulate lady and have already done so much to build a better life than you ever had - with just a helping hand over these harder bits I'm certain you'll get there and go right being a great example to your daughters

@SchadenfreudePersonified

I am just googling EDMR

IME (I am a qualified medical hypnotherapist, though I haven't practised for some years) this is a VERY effective way of dealing with trauma. I don't know why, but it is. I think it interrupts the associations between memory and emotion. Tapping Therapy is also very effective, for similar reasons.

Both are simple, say to learn and cheap (ie free) to do.

There was (is) a thread on the Relationships board that asked why women put up with abuse.

Everyone was so quick to state that this was 'victim blaming' and the question rather should be 'why do men abuse'. The woman had no responsibility 'cos abused etc etc.

This is how a very real, important and valid question gets smothered by allegations of 'blame' and all sorts of woke shit

I agree with this, too.

Manipulative, bullying men effectively cause a form of Stockholm Syndrome in their partners, so that they can neither see the abuse nor fight it - even many years afterwards, and even if they are out of the relationship. The emotions attached to the situation/man are so deep-rooted and so paralysing that they can prevent effective functioning.

These poor women effectively need to be de-programmed. It is no more their fault that it is the fault of someone who is brainwashed (it is brainwashing). However, that doesn't mean that they can be allowed affect innocent lives.

Would be genuinely interested to know the organisation issuing “medical hypnotherapy” qualifications?

You poor thing, what a disgusting man he is. As others have said, you really cannot subject your daughters to this again. It’s a shame , but, if this means cutting your Mother out of your life as well, then so be it. She should have protected you when you were a child, she didn’t .

@Friendsoftheearth

Thank you vodka it is my experience too, and I am so sorry you had to lose so much to try and find some peace and comfort. Do you mind me asking how you lost everything in the process? Was it just too much for you at the time?

I am just googling EDMR

I lost my career and couldn't work. Could barely function snd lost most of my friends. No work = no money for the mortgage. Anyway I've started a new career - still behind (had a flat in a prime and I do mean prime London postcode. Now have a large mortgage in zone 2)

At the time I lost my best friend whose husband had been in therapy for years. Not getting better, but he was running a lot and functioning.

After I saw my GP and she explained depression to me (and I started on prozac) it was like a light went off. All the things he was saying to his therapist about guilt and shame - he had it too. So she (his therapist) just sat there for years listening to him and watching him not get better and not explaining. They always bang on about not labelling but I couldn't have someone sit in front of me month after month utterly confused and not tell them what was going on. Especially when they kept asking what was wrong with them. Cold as fuck.

Psychodynamic therapy. God how I fucking hate those words. Sorry.

Aaannnyway. It's clear your mum is more involved in this than it seemed. I think it will eat away at you now and I think you deserve to be heard. By her. She's 72 and not on her deathbed yet - and I'm sorry no amount of navel gazing will fix that she has essentially taken no responsibility. She should be accountable.

So why not take the tried and tested approach of writing her a letter. And actually send it. Say what you need to say, tell her how it's going to be with contact and tell her what (if anything) you need from her. Tell her she will not see her GC until she acknowledges she has read and understood the letter.

Maybe send it a couple of times in case her bullying husband does the mail. I doubt you'll get a satisfactory response but I'm not sure letting sleeping dogs lie is an option anyway now.

vodka I've never been a fan of psychodynamic therapy either.

@Friendsoftheearth You've travelled a long, hard journey today, so look after yourself tonight.

Do what your instincts tell you, your only priority is to your DDs. My dad sexually abused me and hit me, I told no one to protect my mum to my detriment. Only now have i started to be heard and with the help of my local abuse team, have I told my mum what he did, and you know what she did? Nothing, she is still with him brushing it under the carpet whilst outcasting me.

So Op I applaud you for standing I for your Children, your mum
Is complicit in allowing his behaviour. Hopefully you will see this in time too. Good luck .

That's awful! The awful physical abuse that you received -and though physical punishment was more accepted in the 70s than it is now, it was NOT considered as normal for a father to administer severe beatings to a small child, especially perhaps a daughter; or to continue at school age with beatings to the point of leaving bruises all over you. I am so sad that you had such an awful childhood, and am glad that you have a good and loving family now. And making sexual comments (for they are) to and about your daughters- sorry, but that made me go EWWWW!!!!! . I am not surprised that they don't want to be around them, and I am glad that you are respecting their wishes. I am sorry for your dm, as she must have been bullied and intimidated too: however, she watched him beat you without intervening, and made you lie to social services, which is not the way a mother should protect her children. You should indeed only see her without him.

I think that when a woman with kids is being abused by a violent partner, one of two things tends to happen.

1. She puts up with the abuse until he hurts her children or she's worried he might hurt the children, and leaves because she wants to protect them.
2. She lets him abuse the kids as well because at least it takes some of the heat off her.

OP's mum is the second type, IMO. While I appreciate OP's dad was cruel to her mum too, I can't bear the thought of a woman watching a little kid being beaten up and doing nothing.

Imagine the situation, you were in an accident, dh needed to be on the hospital etc, gp came to look after your children. If dad acted in his usual way would your mum have protected your children? I don't think so, they'd have been told to lie. So who is at fault?
There was a golden child but now there's a golden parent because she wasn't as bad as your dad. But the bar to bring a good parent is so much higher than you've set.
She is not a good parent, sorry.

Protect your daughters and keep him firmly out of their lives. Your mother has made her choices and you need to make better ones . I would have kicked off totally if ANYONE upset my kids like that . I’m outraged on their behalf . Don’t let him have any power. Be free and if that means NC with your mother then so be it. Why even explain ...he doesn’t deserve any consideration.

@Alexandernevermind

Sorry to sound harsh, but your mother did not protect you from his unkind words and behaviour. Now history is repeating itself, for you to have a relationship with your mother, your own children are now having to relive the abuse.

Absolutely this. She did NOT protect you from the confusing uncomfortable vibes, i appropriate behaviour and downright nastiness. Now is the time to stop history repeating itself.

Don’t let him near your children.

I also don’t mean to be cruel but I wouldn’t leave them alone in the care of your mum either. I would worry he would pressure her to let him near them too and that she might not be strong enough to protect your wishes.

I’ll so sorry you are going through this..

OP, I understand where your mum was coming from.

the mid-1970's was still very backward in many ways. Ok there were families who were much more humane, but there was a huge legacy that women are lesser, that the man is the boss, that he can rule with a rod of iron. Some posters didn't have that experience but a lot of people did. My father remembers that his father was literally not allowed to talk at the table, not one word, and that if he did, they got hit with a cane; a friend of my dads, when he tried to take a piece of meat out of turn, got his hand stabbed through with a fork.

Women were lesser, and so, powerless, they became very manipulative. Pride wasn't self-respect, it was being sure that the neighbours approved. You couldnt possibly allow it to be seen that something was wrong. Children, weak and vulnerable, were sacrified to the utterly overriding necessity for an apparently perfect life.

it sounds to me like your mum tried at first to protect you, then something happened, your dad stopped arguing with her but took it out on you but she was too beaten down to be able to do anything about it. And boys are the best, so she protected your brother not you. She had companionship in her misery; her daughter. Now she loves you dearly because she ... has companionship. She doesn't expect that from her son, and she knows all too well that you suffered greatly and know what it's like, and you provide the love that any human being needs.

So ... one can have compassion. But she was profoundly misguided and beaten down and like people do who can't endure any more, was not the victim herself and closed her eyes to the victimization of others who can't defend themselves.

You clung to your mum and I think you are still clinging to your mum. Perhaps the little girl part of you who is still very much alive and desperate, becuase there's no way that that little-girl part doesn't exist still.

Either way, you have said clearly that you will allow no more contact between your daughters and your father and that is absolutely necessary and right. I also think that if you can, you should quietly discourage contact between your daughters and your mother because, devastatingly beaten down, she is an enemy within, not protecting any of you.

Going into therapy is hard for anyone, and for someone who's gone through what you have it's extremely challenging. Frankly I know too well you are right, that others go through far worse in life, but what you went through was more than bad enough.

But you are strong, you are making the right decision and with -effective- therapy you may come to terms with some things. On the other hand, there are a few people for whom it can actually be a bad idea. What is your gut instinct telling you here?

I hope that you can find peace, OP. Also, from the little bits you've said - talk to your husband more about this. I think he sees more than you do becuase he's not in the middle of the woods, and I suspect he's been holding back on what he thinks.

"boys are best" is how things were seen overall, of course. Not actually true.

@SonEtLumiere

While I appreciate OP's dad was cruel to her mum too, I can't bear the thought of a woman watching a little kid being beaten up and doing nothing.

I think the one using his fists is worse personally.

I think we can all agree on that. The dad is a piece of shit.

OP, your thread is one of the hardest threads I have ever read on here. I'm going to say something that I hope will not get jumped on because I mean it in context.

You are a similar age to me. I was sexually abused by my godfather between the ages of 6 and 13. My godmother knew about it. When I went for counselling decades later one of the first things my counsellor asked me was whether my DM had been abused too. I walked out and never went back, it was too much to bear - that my beautiful kind DM had been hurt too but then - wait, what? Did she know what he was like? What he was capable of? What you said about him beating your mum while you shouted and tried to intervene - she didn't do that for you did she?
So, the controversial thing I want to say is that times were different then. There was no Womens Aid. Women being raped by their husbands was perfectly legal (I'm not saying this happened to your mum, just trying to show how different women and children were valued in the 70s). It wouldn't have been easy for your mum to leave. I am NOT making excuses for her, just trying to put it into context because god knows I've had the same thoughts with myself about my godmother's and possible (and heartbreaking) DM's complicity in my own abuse.

Times have changed and we have more choices now, I don't think your DM will feel these choices apply to her, she is too embedded in the old way of thinking. So whether you cut her some slack or not is up to you.
I'm glad to read that this thread has helped you protect your daughters from this cycle of abuse. And I am so sorry that the people that were supposed to love and protect you have treated you this way. I wish you the best for your future. I have finally come to terms with my past and I know you will too, once you have cut this horrible man out of yours and your daughters lives forever.