Grandfather is being inappropriate around my dc

[Friendsoftheearth]

I feel quite sick writing this post, but I really could do with some guidance and advice.

My father was extremely abusive when I was a child both physically and emotionally. He would tell my brother and I that he does not like children, and only agreed to have them for my mother. I have no happy memories of my childhood with him at all. My mother stayed, she tried to leave a few times but did not in the end. I am very close to my mother.

Fast forward to now. I have a low contact arrangement with my parents. I could not go completely nc because it would mean never seeing my mother again, as she does not drive and it is difficult meeting her on my own as my father is always there (retired)

We did have to go nc for a number of years and it was extremely hard for me, I missed my mother so much. We have started seeing them again, but I am careful to keep the meet ups brief and 'light'. However the last few times my father has taken to saying the following to my teen dc (16 and 14):

What lovely legs they have, shape etc
Weight - asking them how much they weigh - this is a no go area with teen girls in my view even if they are not overweight
Describing one of them as dressed provocatively - his words (She definitely was not it was just a pair of normal shorts)
He forces them to cuddle him, they obviously don't like it
He makes spiteful jokes about their skin and spots - made my dd cry all of the way home
Makes fun of their eyebrows (no idea why)
Comments pretty much non stop on something or anything to do with them. One of them is vegetarian and he went on and on about it.

It took a lot for me to pull him up on his spiteful remarks about their skin, as I still feel some level of fear around him, and his answer was that we being over sensitive and can't take a joke!
My reply is that his 'jokes' are not remotely funny and are causing offence. You can't speak to anyone like that, especially not teenagers. He said we lack a sense of humour and everyone is being too fluffy, and the dds are turning into 'snowflakes'...

Am I being precious and over sensitive?
Am I right to stop him from saying these to my children? They are, by the way great fun most of the time but my carefree girls who usually have easy smiles and cheerful dispositions have grown to mistrust him, and they now look edgy around both of my parents now. The eldest is now refusing to go, I respect that of course.

Where do I go from here?

I love my mother dearly, but can not reach her because he is always there, they live 3 hours away, I can't just drop in. I can't seem to have a relationship with her without having to put up with him. They are talking about visiting again, and I don't want them to. Christmas will be next...

I don't want him anywhere near my children again.

@Friendsoftheearth

I am on the BACP website, but feel a little overwhelmed with the number of options how can you find one that specialises in family trauma? It is quite a task working out which one would be the best option, as there are so many and too many options.

Psychodynamic focuses on past events in childhood that become part of the unconscious but they usually become patterns in our lives. Person centred focuses on the present , the conscious mind . This is based on your psychological growth being interrupted by you taking on the values of others that you begin to lose yourself .

Either of these approaches suit your situation and many counsellors are well versed in both ( apart from the counsellor who said you should forgive ).

Call, email several off them. Ask if they can do an introductory session to see if they are right for you . Some do half sessions , introductory rates .

He just encroaches on everything good, and wrings out the love and joy and replaces it with hateful barbed comments and derogatory comments.

Not any more he doesn't, because he is not coming anywhere near anything good in your life, ever again. Thanks to your strength and clarity.

Sadly though your mother is likely to want to continue manipulating you. I hope you don't believe any of that 'it was just the times'. I am 15 years older than you and that was definitely NOT normal even when I was a child.

It does not seem likely your mother will ever be able to face what kind of mother she was. It will be easier for her to carry on in her cuckoo land of 'not my fault'. She will almost certainly feel the need to make very strenuous efforts to maintain that fiction, for her own mental self-preservation. But her mental self-preservation is not your responsibility (and never was, of course). So do not let her guilt you into maintaining any fictions just to make her comfortable. You do what works for you and your daughters. You have NO responsiblity to her. None.

You must suddenly feel as though you have been orphaned, facing all this. I can't imagine how hard it must be for you. I am so glad you are seeking real life support. Really really glad.

Like pps, I have rarely read such a harrowing tale, and your resilience and love in raising two daughters who have good boundaries is an extraordinary thing. All the in the world to you

Sorry. I clicked YABU by mistake. I obviously meant the opposite.

I have now found a very good therapist, thanks to you all.

I have arranged to see my mother alone when the dc go back to school. At no time is he going to be coming near any of us, and I am including myself in this, I have been through enough already. I owe him nothing.

Also a wee note that this subject obviously can be a bit of a 'trigger' for some people, and can make them react in a very emotive way. So, anything that feels too much that you read on here, just skip over. Your priority is looking after yourself right now.

From my own experience psychodynamic sounds good. Look for someone who lists trauma, childhood trauma, abuse or similar in their profile. If you have any symptoms of PTSD (look them up) then go for someone who also offers EMDR, which is a NICE (NHS) recommended treatment for PTSD. It would be pretty amazing if you managed a childhood like that without developing PTSD, so you should probably consider that.

I'd avoid generalist 'counsellors', they're more suited to e.g. dealing with stress from a redundancy or work situation, not major trauma. I've had 2 poor ones, who managed to make things worse by stirring stuff up and then weren't qualified to help me handle the fall-out. Check how many people they have helped with your sort of history. Meet them/meet online - some will offer a first free appointment, or may charge for a one-off. See if you 'gel'. Also check the terms - some charge every week even if you can't make it, whereas others are more flexible.

If you felt able to write the area of the UK you're in (not specific, just 'north-east, west country, london etc) then people might be able to recommend names for you to research. But obviously don't write anything identifying.

It is a very emotive subject and a few of us are feeling very concerned, me included. I am so glad that you found what will hopefully be a good therapist. I would suggest though to keep arrangements to see your mother quite vague. I reckon once you begin to see this therapist, it will touch on and very much reveal your mother’s abuse. Hence you might want to keep contact suggestions a bit non-committal and make no firm arrangements. I think you will probably need quite a bit of emotional and physical distance from your mother once you really allow yourself to see her what she really is.

You must suddenly feel as though you have been orphaned, facing all this I don't think I am alone in saying that is precisely how I have felt since I had to go nc in the first place, the dawning realisation that even my own mother was part of this.

I am very sorry if it is triggering for anyone, I never intended it to sound harrowing

@ArabellaScott

Also a wee note that this subject obviously can be a bit of a 'trigger' for some people, and can make them react in a very emotive way. So, anything that feels too much that you read on here, just skip over. Your priority is looking after yourself right now.

Good advice Arabella

It's good to let the OP know that she is not alone in what she has suffered , and has support, but if any post is too raw for her, I'm sure the poster won't mind if she passes over it. Some things will help her, others may plunge her into misery - we none of us know which posts will be which.

My Dad is not this bad but similar, commented on my appearance growing up but not sexual. I’ve kicked my dad out for what he’s said to the kids when young, and he lives a few hours drive away. It is a bit better now and he will be told off. He also knows the kids aren’t fond of him because of it. It’s tricky as it depends on the relationship. I can tell my Dad to fuck off and it’s ok.

My dear, I maybe wasn't clear - I wasn't suggesting you should worry about triggering other people - who have a choice to read the thread and respond, or not respond. I'm telling you to protect yourself, emotionally. Put yourself and your emotions first. Seek good advice from trustworthy sources. While there is loads of great advice and support on Mumsnet, it is an anonymous internet forum at the end of the day.

Professional help is a good idea, you're brave and sensible to go that route; a good therapist will understand boundaries, will recognise if you are 'triggering' things within her or himself, will maintain a safe space for you.

Hopefully that all makes sense, I'm really not criticising you - just encouraging you to look after yourself!

I did psychodynamic therapy when I had depression. It ruined my life.

After Id almost lost everything (& spent a lot of money!) I went to my kind GP who gave me meds. Even now I am angry that the psychodynamic approach of not 'labelling' or telling you anything useful meant I had no idea what was going on. I think that watching someone slide down with clinical depression & lose it all (career, home eventually, friends, savings) & not say a word is cold as fuck.

Therapists think they are helping. Maybe some do. Eventually. But the three I saw did fuck all - & yes I gave them time. Always very evasive about what their approach was (I wanted a more CBT centred approach) & I wanted help with a specific condition which one claimed to know about - turns out he knew nothing & was useless to me as a result.

The people I know who have had the most therapy (years & years) are not ok. One is better after she cut down her three sessions a week to 2 then one, got a hobby & finally met someone. That was what healed her. The therapy just sent her spinning aropund in circles.

OP if you have those very traumatic memories Im sure you already know that EMDR is a big help. Its completely different & it works.

The rest - you might find it useful to talk to someone about it but after a while it just starts to turn into something else. If youre not getting anywhere quit. Its not the golden ticket people here (some of whom I suspect are counsellors) are making it out to be. Maybe for some people. But not everyone.

OP, I know you've decided not to let this abuser see your DC again, but please be aware of attempts to manipulate your DDs via phones and SM, as you've mentioned they already have some contact with your DM via texts.

From reading all your posts, I sadly agree with pp that your DM is complicit in the abuse, and would not put it above her to try and manipulate your DDs to break NC.

And another talk with your DD could be useful, to highlight the manipulation, etc. Don't let your parents drip poison into your DDs ears.

Best wishes, I hope the counselling goes well

kramp yes I just said it will be some time in the autumn, I didn't say when. It is a good suggestion to wait and see the therapist first thank you. I am dreading seeing the therapist a little, I don't want my life to fall apart if I can't deal with talking about it.

I have thought about writing a letter to my parents, but honestly my mother will use it is a tool to create a huge fuss and drama. She will cry and sob and plead that I am hurting her, punishing her when she has done nothing but her best for me.
Even just trying to explain gently to her how hard I have found dealing with some of the stuff that happened will trigger a whole tide of her suffering, there is never any time when she will really listen to me. I have heard it all before whenever I have done this in the past.

It will always be about her suffering. She will always be the victim. It doesn't matter what happens to anyone else, it is always her pain that we need to comfort. This makes her sound like a drama queen, she isn't though, she is as timid as a mouse.

Thank you vodka it is my experience too, and I am so sorry you had to lose so much to try and find some peace and comfort. Do you mind me asking how you lost everything in the process? Was it just too much for you at the time?

I am just googling EDMR

Do you think it would help you to write the letter - but not send it? I have written quite a few unsent letters over the years - sometimes just getting things out of my head and onto paper helps.

@Haffiana

There was (is) a thread on the Relationships board that asked why women put up with abuse.

Everyone was so quick to state that this was 'victim blaming' and the question rather should be 'why do men abuse'. The woman had no responsibility 'cos abused etc etc.

This is how a very real, important and valid question gets smothered by allegations of 'blame' and all sorts of woke shit. We need to really start to understand what is going on. Because irrespective of whether anyone is blaming anyone, there are very, very serious consequences for the children of women who put up with abuse. By failing to protect their children from that abuse some mothers are effectively acting as abusers themselves. So it may not be their 'fault', but the consequence of 'putting up with abuse' is that they also become abusers.

OP, your mother is STILL allowing the abuse of children after all these years. She still is willing for it to continue and she is even perfectly OK with asking you also to allow it to continue - to be complicit, as she was when you were little. Just think about it - she is actively allowing children to be the ones to pay for the consequences of her actions. So yes, she is a victim, but she is also a perpetrator.

I agree. Well put

arabella Okay I thought you meant I was triggering other people, and I definitely don't want to make anyone upset. This has not been the easiest thing to talk about, but I am extremely grateful for the help I have received on here, and the kindness.

OP, I don’t know if this would be helpful, but I found writing things down extremely cathartic when I had therapy. I bought myself a little bound book, which was strictly for my eyes only. I just wrote out my deepest feelings and painful memories. The sense of relief I would experience once something which was nebulous and full of shame, fear and guilt was put to paper in black and white was tremendous. It felt as if I was nurturing and giving voice to my neglected childhood self - almost as if I was re-parenting the child I once was. Learning how to listen to one’s young self, how to give soothing to that inner child gave me the tools to understand and interpret my own feelings, rather than descend into my usual depression because I couldn’t cope with the feelings of parental betrayal. I think many neglected and/or abused children as adults don’t really trust their own judgement and feelings because they never experienced any validation from their parents. I found Pete Walker’s book, ‘Complex PTSD - From Surviving to Thriving’ invaluable.

Good luck with your therapy. I know how scary the prospect of it can be. I wish you all the best.

@Friendsoftheearth

You must suddenly feel as though you have been orphaned, facing all this I don't think I am alone in saying that is precisely how I have felt since I had to go nc in the first place, the dawning realisation that even my own mother was part of this.

I am very sorry if it is triggering for anyone, I never intended it to sound harrowing

You don’t need to apologise for it “sounding” harrowing. It is harrowing, and your family have ensured you downplay the abuse so as not to upset them with the truth.

It’s the loneliest existence, when you learn so young that no one will come to protect you. I will never forget my 4 year old brother’s screams as my mother beat him and bounced him up and down by the arm because he’d broken his leg. I was 7 and I’d already learned to keep my head down and my emotions to myself.

I felt alone my whole life, with suicidal ideations at times. Walking away, and deciding that alone was better than being hurt, was the start of my new life, in my 40s. And I don’t feel alone in the world anymore, I have gained the mental energy to nuture the good relationships with people in my life.

I think you’re amazing, for what it’s worth. Counselling will undoubtedly be hard, but necessary to start to see yourself as you really are, not how they treat you. Once your eyes are opened you can’t unsee things, nor will you want to.

So yes, she is a victim, but she is also a perpetrator I agree.

The question of why do women put up with abuse? It serves their own self hatred in some cases, they are comfortable because their childhoods were similar/same, they feel they don't deserve anything better. Some will enjoy the 'drama' of violence and the attention directly or indirectly. Others will have no other experience apart from neglect, they are conditioned to continue. Others it will be material and other self serving reasons that are more important to them than personal safety.

The phenomena of not being able to live without the abuser is very common, and the dependency is real both materially and emotionally.

I do have some experience personal and otherwise.

We can only overcome this problem by raising children without violence and fear, and therefore it is alien to them in the first place. Children with developed confidence in their own voice and in themselves. Resilience and independence and most of all, to have learnt the art of actually caring about themselves properly in the first place.

So many cycles need to be stopped though, and that is the only way you can beat it. Someone has to be the circuit breaker, and it is really painful to be that person.

I've read your posts OP and I could have almost written some of them myself. Well done for removing your children from the situation. I see my father very very rarely and refuse to let him ruin my child's life the way he tried to ruin mine.

For a while I was quite angry with my Mum for putting us through it, for not standing up for us. Now I can see that she was truly stuck - the options were stay and be a good Mum or leave and he got us half time. She did a LOT of covering, I wonder if your Mum did too (I have no idea, might be worth thinking about). My Mum is also very emotional and can at times be a little selfish but I put this down to living with someone who has done everything they can to deny her a happy family.

I mostly wanted to let you know that therapy has made a huge different to my life and to my family. It look about 2 months to get to the crux of the issue - the hugely critical voice I'd adopted for myself that my Dad spent a life putting onto me (he's told me I'm worthless, a bad person, stupid, selfish, weird).

laLoba So many posts have touched me, yours is another one. I immediately can see we are from the same place. Your poor brother how cruel. And yes we learn quickly how to survive.

It’s the loneliest existence, when you learn so young that no one will come to protect you Yes I still feel that very deeply even now. I know whatever happens I am completely on my own. I could be surrounded by a whole houseful of people wanting to help, and would still feel that on some level.

I felt alone my whole life, with suicidal ideations at times Me too. For sure not that anyone else would ever know.

I have gained the mental energy to nuture the good relationships with people in my life I am so happy when I read this part of your post, because there is some light in all of this. Mental strength comes eventually, and every day becomes a blessing because I can't take anything or anyone for granted.

You sound like a lovely person almost in the same shoes.

First of all I'm so sorry to hear what you went through in your childhood - and I'm so sorry that all the figures of responsibility in your life at that point let you down.
The most important thing you do for your children is to create a safe, loving environment; something your parents failed to do for you but something you are now doing through your decision to remove your father from all of your lives.
I can understand your conflicted feelings towards your Mum - but she has a decision to make. She can be in your life and see you without her husband or she can choose not to. That's for her to decide - you have set the boundaries

Hi OP. Glad to see you've taken steps to protect your children and yourself. Good job!

Just to say I've got an abusive father too, and my mum was also both a victim, and an enabler. This shit stinks. But I've got strangely fond (and still very vivid) memories of the few times I finally stood up against his bullying, and told him to fuck off. I grew stronger each time I asserted my boundaries, and he slowly grew weaker. I fully trust you, too, can break the cycle