Grandfather is being inappropriate around my dc

[Friendsoftheearth]

I feel quite sick writing this post, but I really could do with some guidance and advice.

My father was extremely abusive when I was a child both physically and emotionally. He would tell my brother and I that he does not like children, and only agreed to have them for my mother. I have no happy memories of my childhood with him at all. My mother stayed, she tried to leave a few times but did not in the end. I am very close to my mother.

Fast forward to now. I have a low contact arrangement with my parents. I could not go completely nc because it would mean never seeing my mother again, as she does not drive and it is difficult meeting her on my own as my father is always there (retired)

We did have to go nc for a number of years and it was extremely hard for me, I missed my mother so much. We have started seeing them again, but I am careful to keep the meet ups brief and 'light'. However the last few times my father has taken to saying the following to my teen dc (16 and 14):

What lovely legs they have, shape etc
Weight - asking them how much they weigh - this is a no go area with teen girls in my view even if they are not overweight
Describing one of them as dressed provocatively - his words (She definitely was not it was just a pair of normal shorts)
He forces them to cuddle him, they obviously don't like it
He makes spiteful jokes about their skin and spots - made my dd cry all of the way home
Makes fun of their eyebrows (no idea why)
Comments pretty much non stop on something or anything to do with them. One of them is vegetarian and he went on and on about it.

It took a lot for me to pull him up on his spiteful remarks about their skin, as I still feel some level of fear around him, and his answer was that we being over sensitive and can't take a joke!
My reply is that his 'jokes' are not remotely funny and are causing offence. You can't speak to anyone like that, especially not teenagers. He said we lack a sense of humour and everyone is being too fluffy, and the dds are turning into 'snowflakes'...

Am I being precious and over sensitive?
Am I right to stop him from saying these to my children? They are, by the way great fun most of the time but my carefree girls who usually have easy smiles and cheerful dispositions have grown to mistrust him, and they now look edgy around both of my parents now. The eldest is now refusing to go, I respect that of course.

Where do I go from here?

I love my mother dearly, but can not reach her because he is always there, they live 3 hours away, I can't just drop in. I can't seem to have a relationship with her without having to put up with him. They are talking about visiting again, and I don't want them to. Christmas will be next...

I don't want him anywhere near my children again.

I'm so sorry you had to live with this abuse. No one (child or adult) should ever have to live like that.

I am lucky because my father just used his fists and my cousin was hit with a belt.

Is this cousin the child of one of your mum's siblings? Because if it is it sounds to me as if she may be perpetuating a family legacy of abuse. Chances are she and her siblings were abused by their parent(s). Not an excuse by any means. Thank God you are breaking that cycle!

I think it's probably for the best that neither of your parents see your DDs. Your dad for obvious reasons. Your mum for more subtle ones. She is obviously unable to understand that putting up with abuse is wrong. She also feels that it's acceptable to ignore abuse to save one's own skin or to preserve one's 'standard of living'. For your DDs, even being around someone like this can give a subtle message that you feel her behaviour was not really her fault and that she is to be pitied and accepted. A dangerous message, IMO, because it sends the message that staying in an abusive relationship can at times be a valid choice. It never is.

Stop putting your teen daughters in that situation OP. Don't take them to be in someones company who says such inappropriate things to them.

Tell him to fuck off. Tell him he succeeded in ruining your childhood but that your DC are not going to go through that shit. What a cunt. I'm sorry OP

I have nothing to add except I wanted to explain my vote - I was confused by the wording of the question and voted YABU. Because you would be unreasonable to continue making your younger daughter visit your parents.

As the thread has continued, I now think YABU to let either of your parents have any role in your life or your family ever again. Your mother would be devastated? Tough shit. You reap what you sow. And the fact that you don't view her as being as bad or worse than your father is deeply disturbing.

You sound like an amazing person to have come through all this and I hope you find peace.

There was (is) a thread on the Relationships board that asked why women put up with abuse.

Everyone was so quick to state that this was 'victim blaming' and the question rather should be 'why do men abuse'. The woman had no responsibility 'cos abused etc etc.

This is how a very real, important and valid question gets smothered by allegations of 'blame' and all sorts of woke shit. We need to really start to understand what is going on. Because irrespective of whether anyone is blaming anyone, there are very, very serious consequences for the children of women who put up with abuse. By failing to protect their children from that abuse some mothers are effectively acting as abusers themselves. So it may not be their 'fault', but the consequence of 'putting up with abuse' is that they also become abusers.

OP, your mother is STILL allowing the abuse of children after all these years. She still is willing for it to continue and she is even perfectly OK with asking you also to allow it to continue - to be complicit, as she was when you were little. Just think about it - she is actively allowing children to be the ones to pay for the consequences of her actions. So yes, she is a victim, but she is also a perpetrator.

I don't think you should see a CBT therapist . I think you maybe better suited to a counsellor who specifically deals with trauma in childhood .

Use the BACP website ... speak with 2/3 counsellors to see which is the best fit for you.

I think you need a break from speaking with your mother . From what you have shared, she is equally as abusive as your father and has caused you as much damage if not more as your father.

She is a snake in the grass and you need distance and space from her to start processing her pivotal role in your abusive childhood and her continual manipulation ....to put it mildly ...she is worse as she is keeping you in this abusive relationship by her emotional manipulation.

She does not need rescuing , she can only rescue herself.

Step away from her .

I would also keep an eye on the texts and messages she is sending your children .... manipulation , selecting a golden child will no doubt be evident in these messages .

I'm so glad you aren't going to make your DDs visit any more. If he asks why the girls aren't with you when you visit, tell him they think he is a dirty old man!"

And if he objects tell him he is a snowflake and can't take a joke. But that they can't stand being in the same room as him.

Stop contact you don’t need this evil man to effect anyone else’s life. You need to protect them from him. He’ll fuck up their self confidence like he has with you. He’s a bully and gets away because he’s belittled everyone around him so much. You could still have contact with your mother. Pick her up if she doesn’t drive just wait in the car outside for her to come out.

The above is good advice. I was also interested in your DH's comment - I'm a little surprised he hasn't said he doesn't want your DDs visiting your parents. I had wondered at first if you were a single parent.

It's very easy for everyone to tell you to stop contact but the reality with families is difficult, mainly because of your mother.

Is there a way you could try and get your mother away from him? Could she come and live with you if you have any room? The only reason you go there is for your mother and if she is safe so will you and your DC. You wouldn't have to be in contact with your father again.

Agree with all the above. No contact with him for your daughters. Please don't let him hurt them. And protect yourself too.

I had a grandfather like this, and the thing he did and said still haunt me.

Family are people you should be able to trust but sadly sometimes they are not to be trusted.

I'm so sorry about your situation, which appears to be crying out for safe boundaries.

Based on what you've written, I understand that your father is unwell, your mother has possibly become too disempowered to take appropriate action and in that sense has become 'unwell' , your children are under-age.

You are the only one with the power (an ability) to act.

You're going to have to act on behalf of all of them, in the name of the health and safety.

Stand up and ROAR. This is not a time to be reasonable or worry what any of them think of you.

Rise up, I'd say. Dig deep underneath all the normalising and treading on eggshells (if I read correctly) and feel your own possible rage/pain and let it form accurate, action taking words.

Your father got it wrong. Your mother got it wrong.

You can get it right.

Go for it and let it 'heal' all of you.

Best of luck.

Oh I just read the posts about your mother. I'm so sorry but I think cutting off contact with both is a very good idea. Sorry you have to go through this.

I am on the BACP website, but feel a little overwhelmed with the number of options how can you find one that specialises in family trauma?
It is quite a task working out which one would be the best option, as there are so many and too many options.

Firstly I want to say how sorry o am for all you have been through. And how much my heart goes out to that little girl who was so badly let down by the people who are supposed to love her most.

Really well done for protecting your daughters and stopping this cycle of abuse in its tracks.

I appreciate that it is very difficult to unpack all the complicated emotions from your childhood. The realisation that your mother was complicit in your abuse must be very hard to come to terms with.

I think therapy with a really good therapist would really help you deal with all this and allow you to hug yourself as a child - that what happened was not your fault and you have nothing to feel guilty or ashamed about. It won't be an easy process but I think you will find it hugely beneficial.

Good luck - you sound like a fabulous mum

You must have wasted hours of your life on these people. Stop. Your mother makes her own unwise and weak choices, which she has to live by. Tell your parents neither you nor your DDs want to see your father any more and tell them why. It may mean losing contact with your mother but, to put it bluntly, your children are going to be around suffering the consequences of his mental problems for a lot longer than she will if you don't protect them.

I agree with others that your Mum was complicit in your abuse and emotionally manipulative.

I really do believe that you should cut BOTH of them out of your lives 100%.

I don't think you should consider your mother's feelings. You must do what's right for your dds and yourself and that would be to never see your father again.

I would tell your mother that if she wants to see you and her gc, it must be on her own.

Being sexually harassed like your dds were will stay with them. They have been objectified and sexually bullied by their grandfather.

This may sound harsh but women like your mother make me so angry. She enabled your father to abuse you and now she is enabling him to abuse her gc. This is a woman who isn't thinking of you and your dds feelings. She is codependent on your father and no amount of taking her own for dinner on her own will change that.

She made her choice years ago by staying with a man who terrorised her innocent children. You owe her nothing.

Okay I think I am getting somewhere, this is not my line of expertise at all! So does a Psychodynamic counsellor specialising in emotional and physical abuse sound like the right thing?
I don't want to make a mistake choosing the wrong one again. There are so many, it is hard to work out which one would be best.

This must be very difficult OP. I have found this thread very upsetting, and I can't imagine what you've been through. To echo other posters you have been very strong not to have ended up in an abusive relationship just like your mother as I believe these patterns can repeat themselves due to damage done in childhood.

I agree with what most other posters have written that you need to keep your DD's away from your father. I understand your need not to have any confrontation or drama, this would be very distressing and emotionally draining, and also give your mother a chance to manipulate you out of what you have decided! I would simply stop taking your daughters with you and not explain why. And see your mother on your own out of the house if possible and stay in a hotel or airbnb etc.
If at some point the lack of contact with your daughters comes up , hopefully by then the therapy you are planning to access will have helped you formulate a response.
I am astonished though that your mother made you lie to social services about your bruises, and stood by unfeelingly while you were being beaten as a four year old. I am aware that wives of abusers are controlled and damaged, but that really is shocking. I hope you have the strength to consider your mothers role in this at some point OP, but for now I think this is a good start. I really do wish you and your family all the best.

@Friendsoftheearth

Okay I think I am getting somewhere, this is not my line of expertise at all! So does a Psychodynamic counsellor specialising in emotional and physical abuse sound like the right thing? I don't want to make a mistake choosing the wrong one again. There are so many, it is hard to work out which one would be best.

Yes that sounds about right.

I agree that CBT is not for you, it's a quick fix for some recent problems but you need more depth.

Phone/mail them and ask them. A good counsellor should be able to advise you. Even if you fond one who practises in the right area you might find you don't "click" and either you or they should be free to say the relationship won't work, so you won't continue with them. It happens. You need to be able to trust them.

She is codependent on your father My mother is a 100% this.

She made her choice years ago by staying with a man who terrorised her innocent children and choose to stay with him. Even when she had so many options to leave.

I don't want to think badly of her, I want to go back to my old memory of her so much, to feel the comfort of thinking we were in this together, if we had escaped we would have been okay.
But actually I was never allowed to the child for long, it was always about her feelings, me supporting her and comforting her, as soon as I was old enough the roles were reversed and I effectively became the carer/the parent. She regressed to a child when she had her first breakdown, and quite frankly she never really came back. I have always had to be the adult if that makes any sense whatsoever. I had to look after her, even as HE was hitting me.

It is messed up you are right.

My father was extremely abusive when I was a child both physically and emotionally. He would tell my brother and I that he does not like children, and only agreed to have them for my mother. I have no happy memories of my childhood with him at all. My mother stayed, she tried to leave a few times but did not in the end. I am very close to my mother.

Why would you be close to a person who kept you in this situation being abused and damaged day after day to the point that you don’t recall any positive memories of your childhood?

Why also would you ever take your young kids anywhere near this vile man?

My oh warned his ex never to leave his girls alone with his father. She ignored him and long story short the old man served time.

FFS love, you have ONE shot at life and this includes protecting your teens.

If you mother hadn’t enabled your father, your life would be different and a lot happier generally

Stop contact between this man and your dc now. Let the chips fall as they may with your mother, you owe her nothing at all. She chose to allow her dc to be hurt and humiliated. And if you continue on with this, you will choose for your dc to be molested.

Your father didn’t like you, he is a vile person, he will have no compassion or live for your teens, he views them as meat

Wake up.

very strong not to have ended up in an abusive relationship just like your mother as I believe these patterns can repeat themselves

My first real relationship was very abusive. I recognised it pretty soon after he hit me at sixteen, and took myself out of relationships altogether for the best part of ten years so I could fix myself before getting involved again. I knew I was in danger of falling into the same trap again. I had to kind of learn how to take care for myself before I could have a boyfriend again. It took a lot of time.

Your father didn’t like you

Do you know how very difficult it is to know that, to really know that your own father didn't even like you, much less love you?

Can I just say op that you sound so brave and loving. This is nothing short of heroic after what you suffered as a child.

I could cry for 11 year old you being told to lie. Your Mother. Christ, how did she cope knowing you were getting battered and actively taking away any chance of escape from you?

I am so angry at your mother, I'm sorry op, but she is an awful person who should not have been allowed to parent.

(I am from an abusive family and there was a great feeling of freedom when I realised I didn't need the scraps of love my mother occasionally threw my way. I also realised I don't love her and she doesn't love me. Very sad at first, then very liberating.)