Sexual harassment is an almost universal experience for women

[severeine]

I was having a conversation with a well-meaning male friend who was struggling to believe this. I think it is a case of not realising because he hasn't asked/spoken to enough women and isn't a perpetrator himself. For most women I think it is for to say this starts well before even the teen years and persists for 3 or more decades. I have experienced it myself, from school to work, in random situations and still do now. You don't need to be attractive, I am I suppose what you'd call average, you just need to be a woman, ideally unaccompanied. I was talking to one female friend who was harassed every single day by strangers when she lived in Paris, which is one place I've heard of it happening a lot, only it is everywhere. I wonder what your experiences have been?

Yeah happened to me, to every woman I know

The everyday sexism website is a collection of these stories

It hasn't happened for a few years now (40s, live very rurally) but it was pretty relentless in my teens and 20s. Groping, innuendo, being called a frigid bitch etc etc for not responding positively. I lived in Paris for a year age 21 and that was absolutely the worst, I rarely left the house without something frightening, intimidating or just really uncomfortable happening. But also in this country too. It took until I was 40 to realised I'd been seriously sexually assaulted/raped by two "friends" on two separate occasions, while at university. Oh and a boyfriend who used to have sex with me when I was asleep. And just millions more small and not so small incidents. I honestly don't believe women who say this hasn't happened to them; either they haven't been paying attention or have rationalised it as normal rather than seeing it for what it is. Because once you do it's impossible to not feel fucking furious, with the large number of men who either do this or are complicit in it. Because it's not just a tiny minority of men going round harassing and assaulting us all; it's fucking loads of them.
....and breathe...

When I was offered an internal prootion the Head shook my hand and hugged me. The next morning he called me into his office and apologised if I had been offended, one woman on the interviewing panel and told him off. I told him that the hug had been worth all the prep I'd done for the interview, we'd known each other for years.

If anyone has worked in a largely female environment, especially in lower paid jobs, you'll also know that the treatment of young men by older women can be utterly disgraceful, I saw some awful examples in the 70s.

Every woman I am close to - including me - has experienced some form of sexual assault.

Your friend is willfully ignorant tbh. Just like people who think its not racism unless someone is being called the n word.

Yes, there have been threads on here about wolf whistling etc where many women have said they don't mind or feel flattered by it. So they don't count it as harassment.

It first happened when I was twelve, on my way home from school. The single worst incident was when I was in my twenties, my employer managed to get his hands right into my clothing while I was changing a barrel in the cellar of the pub. What shocks me most about the memory of this incident is that I didn't resign or complain to his wife (the landlady of the pub), just made sure I didn't go into the cellar again with only him around. That was 30 year ago, any time from 20 years ago I'd be far more likely to make a big fuss.

And the last time it happened? Was actually earlier today! I suspect my eyes and hair look younger than the rest of me, now that we're all wearing masks most of the time in public I've had uninvited personal remarks and physical gestures from men far more frequently.

Yes I think most women i know have experienced sexual assault in some manner at least once in their lives. Since about the age of 11 for me. I've experienced 20 years of ass grabbing, cat calling, boob staring. I was 13 when my aunties husbands asked me to show him my tits. I was 14 when another family member burst in on me changing a tampon, and made inappropriate comments about being a vampire. I've had a guy stick his finger inside me when I was stood at a bar with my friends. I've been spiked and then fucked when passed out in a caravan. I've had an ex boyfriend pin me down and force himself inside me and afterwards claim I owed it to him for leaving him. Countless comments over the years from men of all ages. It's depressing.

My very first sexual encounter, age 13, was from a little shit in my year at school who groped me on the bus on the way back from a trip. I kept trying to shove his hands away but he kept forcing them back under my top and between my legs, and in the end I just let him - because what were my options? Make a fuss and be known forever more as the frigid dyke? I didn't even feel angry at him, just deeply ashamed. I never spoke to him or looked him in the eye again. And that was how sexual harassment always made me feel - dirty, ashamed, like I'd done something wrong. It's only now I'm older I get righteously angry about it. It's no coincidence that it tails off when we reach a point in our lives when we're less likely to take any shit. If anything I'm sexier now than I was then - it's nothing to do with attractiveness, it's about vulnerability and shame. The fuckers.

Yes. My daughter is being harassed at work! I fear it's getting worse than it was in the 70's, at least then jobs were plentiful and it was easy to move employer. I feel,in comparison, workers are modern day slaves,

You're right, severeine. I imagine it is less so now because woman and girls don't put up with nonsense but in years gone by, a lot were left quite bewildered by being touched and by innuendoes. They didn't know how to cope with it.

I know that was the case with me. I'd often go home, feeling numb and wondering what it was all about; "Did he really mean it?", was a phrase that would go through my mind. It was sometimes like a bad dream and there was nobody with whom I could talk about it.

It's good to know that younger women are more clued up but it still happens.

@Mollscroll

It was a daily occurrence for me when I lived in Paris. Street harassment there is appalling. I was also sexually assaulted there.

And plenty of catcalling here. Flashers. Obscene phone calls (bit of a retro one, that one).

Dd is 13. It started for her when she was 11. She’s already been flashed at and dealt with street harassment.

I remember receiving an obscene phone call once in the 80s. He asked for me by my real name so obviously knew me. He ended up slamming the phone down on me. I obviously didn't give him what he wanted and I never heard from him again.

Surprised that some women haven't experienced it.

There is an improvement in terms of workplace harassment - you can now put in a formal grievance. In the 70s, if you had complained at being groped or pawed over at work, you'd have been laughed at. That was just what men did, it was up to the woman to deal with it.

My (married) MSc supervisor groped me, hand on my thigh. I told my boss at the time - his reaction "I didn't know he had it in him!"

I haven't really experienced much since my teens.

But then, I have a face like a melted welly and the highlight of my social calendar these days is a 2 minute chat with the neighbour about the difference between the green bin and the grey bin. 🤷‍♀️

God, yes, one of my uni lecturers used to squeeze past us too closely on the half landings of the staircase of our building. And put his arms around us from behind to "help" with our practical work (science degree, so stood at a bench).

Started at age 11. I was doing my paper delivery and it was near Christmas and you would get a Xmas bonus sometimes left for you in an envelope. I collected one envelope. It was from a man asking me to go out with him, it was four A4 pages long and complete fantasy of the things we could do if we went out. It scared the shit out of me and I never went back to my paper round.

Every day going to school cars beeping etc.

Travelling in the back of my dad's black cab and stopped in traffic. Two guys leaned into the back and started making inappropriate sexual comments (I was 12) my Dad initially said leave it out etc, they carried on until my Dad got out of the cab, then they legged it.

Too many to count being cornered on the way home from work, not late around 6 pm.

On the tube going to the platform a man coming towards me moved his arm to grab my boob, he put it down again when he saw I was going to punch him.

Lunchtime having my sandwich in a park. I was surrounded by workmen, sexual comments etc.

Men staring in a really unsettling way, groping etc.

So many other times, you never feel safe when alone. It still happens occasionally now and I'm late 40's. Thankfully it is tailing off now.

I never dress in revealing clothes, so it's not me. One Xmas eve I was travelling to my partners house for party. Being winter, I had a an ankle length coat on, buttoned up, scarf etc. A man started chatting me up walking along the street, I kept brushing him off, but trying to be polite. He then turned a bit nasty, saying what did I expect dressed like that! The only bit of exposed flesh was my face.

It is in no way flattering or wanted. At best it is embarrassing, at worst you are scared you will be attacked.

Ive lost track of how many times I have been sexually harassed or assaulted now, thankfully I am quite resilient and well supported. Sexual remarks, anger/persistance despite multiple polite then more firm refusals when turning down drinks or the company of a man at a bar who seem to think that by attending said bar area in their area you are making yourself available for their enjoyment, being groped/grabbed including vagina not limited to bottom which has happened whilst alone and whilst in a group of other girls. Id say my experience of sexual harassment started in middle school with one or two boys who just assume they have consent to grope bottom, peaked in late teens/20s with more physical and verbal abuse including by customers at work, still an issue but not as frequent in 30s but possibly as socialise less alone usually have family with me on outings.

“I used to think it had never really happened to me. I've never experienced for example flashing, parents friends or relatives trying it on or similar. But there have been so many more minor incidents that I'd never given much thought to as they are just part of life.”

I’m afraid I tend to think those that claim they haven’t experienced it simply haven’t registered it and/or aren’t including all the “minor” stuff like catcalls, bra strap pinging at school, name calling, as a pp said the way in a busy pub/club a man won’t say “excuse me” to a woman but grab around the waist and try to move you out the way! They absolutely would NOT do this to men!

In real life I am yet to come across any girl over the age of 10 or woman who hasn’t and I know a LOT due to moving around a lot.

Started around age 9/10 for me, dd was tall for her age and as a result it started younger. I challenged/confronted the sick creeps but it’s rarely the same man each time! So you’re dealing with a new creep each time.

I really strongly feel that the people who are friends/family to such men if they know what they’re like need to tell them - very few do!

But yes op, show your friend this thread and any articles etc you can find to educate him.

The first time I was sexually assaulted I was 11 and it’s happened so many times since I’ve lost count! And I don’t think I’m especially unusual. I wasn’t big chested for most of my life, I’m not particularly good looking (though it was certainly at its worst when I was early 20’s slim and blonde) and not particularly obviously an easy target - certainly I’ll defend myself once something is actually said/done.

The exception to this was when it was my own dad!

But from talking to friends, family and dds friends it’s really common. I once overheard dd and a group of about 8 of her friends hanging out at mine, discussing WHEN they’d first been sexually assaulted and not IF - they were all around 16 at the time! They were discussing their different reactions to being assaulted. 2 had already been raped. 1 of which had been reported as they knew their attacker but police did fuck all basically.

Utterly heartbreaking!

Regarding sex discrimination it’s NOT just at work, it’s housing, healthcare, as a consumer (“don’t you want to check that with your husband first” when buying goods/services that are seen as traditionally “Male” purchases etc)... it’s EVERYTHING

If anyone has worked in a largely female environment, especially in lower paid jobs, you'll also know that the treatment of young men by older women can be utterly disgraceful, I saw some awful examples in the 70s

I’m not generally a fan of “it happens to men too” but I too have witnessed a horrific situation a young lad I worked with experienced. Myself and colleagues tried to protect him as much as possible and even tried to get him to raise a formal complaint but he was reluctant until the perpetrator (our store manager) sexually and viciously assaulted him on the Christmas night out after I’d left that job. At that point he not only raised a complaint within work but reported to police and I don’t blame him. But again police were pretty much useless. Thankfully employers once aware were not and she was rightly sacked without a reference. Then she had the gall to try and accuse them of unfair dismissal!

@Fosler I agree I think we’ve gone backwards!!

The younger girls/women are more clues up - but they’re also aware that the authorities do fuck all and they’re ALSO having to deal with dick pics, shitty comments on social media, revenge porn, stealthing...

Yes, it is universal.

Even when you're not beautiful, men can think that you ought to be GRATEFUL for their attentions. They would back off and leave what they perceive a ''higher status'' (beautiful) woman alone.

Throughout my lifetime there has been much overstepping the line, most of which in the 80s and 90s when women were fair game and we should be 'flattered'. Just watching the Salmond documentary on bbc. It's awful what women are put through and some of it is so trivialised but in reality terrifying for the recipient.

I am so surprised that some women on here have never experienced it. Maybe once it happens you are more aware of it so you notice it more frequently?
Some men are so disgusting.

Yep! Older male clients at work seem to think it's completely fine and I usually have to smile sweetly so as not to cause a fuss.

I have many many times.

From leering men in my auntie's pub when I was 11-12.
To being nearly raped three times at various parties from the age of 16-21.

Grabbed in clubs, had my hand shoved on a mans erect penis in a club when I was 17, freaked me out.

To inappropriate 'while your down there love' comments by older male colleagues when I was 16.

Touched inappropriately and aggressively grabbed in Morocco, quite scary.

I would never walk anywhere alone in the dark, I would never want to be with any of my husbands friends drunk and alone. They are nice guys, but I trust no man if I'm drunk and considered an easy target and vulnerable.

I literally trust no man. It's sad, but men made me this way.

I know, makes me wonder how they escaped it. ARe they The Queen?
Married to a high status man {boak}

Or are they women who have internalised so much misogyny and patriarchy that they just see it as flirting

Used to happen all the time! Still happens but I do think less than it used to. I lived in Paris when I was 25 for 6 months and the harassment I experienced from strangers in the street was constant and very scary at times. Literally Middle Aged men following me down the champs Elysee swearing at me because I wouldn't go for a drink with them when they asked me (completely randomly). Men loitered next to me in cars on my way back from the gym (in a tracksuit) and followed me in the street pushing little notes with their telephone numbers on into my hands. It was f*cking weird and really unpleasant. Completely ruined Paris for me

In London I've experienced a lot too - not as sinister though. I'm now 40 and have perfected my testing b*tch face, which is part of the reason I don't see as much, but I expect younger girls still get plenty of unpleasant attention?

To inappropriate 'while your down there love' comments by older male colleagues when I was 16.

I'd forgotten that phrase but yes, that, more than once.