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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Sexual harassment is an almost universal experience for women

325 replies

severeine · 17/08/2020 18:53

I was having a conversation with a well-meaning male friend who was struggling to believe this. I think it is a case of not realising because he hasn't asked/spoken to enough women and isn't a perpetrator himself. For most women I think it is for to say this starts well before even the teen years and persists for 3 or more decades. I have experienced it myself, from school to work, in random situations and still do now. You don't need to be attractive, I am I suppose what you'd call average, you just need to be a woman, ideally unaccompanied. I was talking to one female friend who was harassed every single day by strangers when she lived in Paris, which is one place I've heard of it happening a lot, only it is everywhere. I wonder what your experiences have been?

OP posts:
HepzibahGreen · 17/08/2020 23:57

And yet I am sure there are men who were groped at age 11, and didn’t feel safe on the train or waking home alone for fear of being attacked. After all, boys/men are 3x more likely than women to be physically assaulted or murdered than women.

Plan this quote is from you. I don't want to derail any further but you are embarrassing yourself.

talkingkrustydoll · 18/08/2020 00:09

Honestly can't say I've had this. The only time I have been groped and forcibly snogged was by another woman. I seem to be pretty invisible to men. Even as a teen I was just a creepy quiet kid who people avoided.

My daughter does say I live in a happy bubble oblivious to the world around me so that may be something. Who knows. I also tend to never go anywhere with lots of people I used to hang round a local bar but as I say I'm pretty much ignored.

noseresearch · 18/08/2020 00:11

I was born in the 90s and fortunately have never experienced it. Just as PP said:
No man has ever groped, assaulted, raped, leered at, catcalled, bra pinged, been inappropriate at work etc. It’s not a case of these things happening but I’m not bothered by it as a pp intimated, they have simply never happened.

Although, I’m also unattractive and have instead experienced LOTS of abusive comments from men. My heart sinks if I have to walk past a group of ‘lads’ as I’m terrified they’ll notice me and say something hurtful again
It’s stolen most of my self esteem 🤷‍♀️

Pepperwort · 18/08/2020 00:14

It’s so common that even for a thread like this, on a site called Mumsnet, designed for women and mothers of men’s children; you have to consider whether it hasn’t been started by a troll to get some sadistic salacious kick.

Try telling your friend to look up sexist abuse in the video games industry, there’s enough of it to satisfy anyone there. Personally the first time I felt threatened and had to get away from a male I was round about 9, and by the time I was a teen I had realised this was the regular risk you run if you insist on being female in Britain.

roundandsideways · 18/08/2020 00:14

I started being followed to and from school at around 10/11. I can't remember a day since then that I haven't experienced it in one form or another. Sadly I've learned the easiest and safest way of dealing with it is to say nothing

ItsAlwaysSunnyOnMN · 18/08/2020 00:14

What I find disturbing when I read these threads is how many of us were getting sexually harassed/assaulted (let’s call it what it is) when we were still obviously children

It’s makes me realise how many men are sexually attracted to girls that are just starting the develop and that makes me feel sick and very sad

I don’t think that’s changed it’s just less acceptable to voice this now

chickenyhead · 18/08/2020 00:15

examples?

It was normal to be gropped at school
Chased home from school by drunk man who wanted sex 13
Raped at 13
Assaulted on the underground (fingers inside) school trip 14
Stalked and harassed by adult man whilst at college 17
Assaulted on street pushed against wall on dark Road 18
Assaulted on street, hand between legs 18
Attempted rape 19
Constant sexual suggestion and approaches by strangers in inappropriate settings
Asked by my boss if I wanted to be a bit on the side
Bum grabbed by different boss, forced tongue in my mouth.
Raped 38
Violently Assaulted in a club 40

It won't happen again as I am now happily unattractive to all.

roundandsideways · 18/08/2020 00:18

In fact the last time I tried to make an official complaint, led to questioning of my mental health and social services involvement. And accusations of being "flirty", and promiscuous. I'm a woman in my 50s. Oh, nd dressing too glamorously - in leggings and uggs ffs

ItsAlwaysSunnyOnMN · 18/08/2020 00:21

I don’t think it had anything to do with being attractive I think its about these men sensing what they can’t get away with and with a younger women it’s likely to be more than an older women

Now I find (nearing 50) it’s thankfully far less but what I am starting to receive is men being more aggressive towards me

Such hatred and anger for what exactly

And the worse men by far are the ones who claim they love women - yeah right as long as they stfu

Danetobe · 18/08/2020 00:23

All the time as a teenager, of course. At age 10 or 11 a grown man commented on and touched my growing breast buds for example. I didn’t think anything of it at the time. There were a lot more occasions too. I’m surprised to hear there are any woman who haven’t experienced it, it seems so commonplace to me.

ItsAlwaysSunnyOnMN · 18/08/2020 00:28

I’m pleased to hear women haven’t experienced what most of us have

I also know some will just pass it off as men being men. According to my mum though she agreed it wasn’t nice a man putting his hand up my skirt in a club wasn’t sexual assault it it was him touching me up and some men can’t keep their hands to themselves

Yes they fucking can

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/08/2020 00:29

Jesus @HavelockVetinari that’s horrific! I’m shocked and appalled but not surprised. I’ve visited many places and somehow Paris was just the worst!

Christ it's scary reading these stories. At just 18 I went to Paris with my best friend and we were constantly harassed, thankfully got away (had to escape two groups of men) and only got a penalty fare on the metro because we didn't want to waste a ticket and had to go when we said we would and they jumped the barriers and let us through, which meant we had to hitchhike back to the ferry. Fun times! Oh and I got sexually assaulted by a man at the beginning of that journey. Nearly forgot that. But when I started this comment, I just thought reading other women's stories, wow, I was lucky in Paris. Which I think sometimes applies to the women who claim they've never ever ever been harassed by men.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/08/2020 00:32

Although, I’m also unattractive and have instead experienced LOTS of abusive comments from men. My heart sinks if I have to walk past a group of ‘lads’ as I’m terrified they’ll notice me and say something hurtful again

That is part and parcel of sexual harassment. They're doing it because you're a woman.

FuckwitMcGee · 18/08/2020 00:36

YANBU at all.

I had it all the time as a frizzy haired teen who refused to wear make up most of the time.

It's got nothing to do with "attractiveness" , and everything to do with men and their sense of entitlement.

MrsTumbletap · 18/08/2020 00:38

I forgot my driving instructor, erghhh he was awful. Would put his hand on my knee, would put his hand on top of my hand on the gear stick.

Would comment on my appearance, say I looked attractive if I wore sunglasses etc. I was 17 ffs and he was this ugly disgusting 45 year old. Erghhh makes my skin crawl thinking about it. He pulled over in this weird place once and was telling me how he was a really fast 'runner'. Almost in a threatening way like 'you wouldn't be able to run away from me'.

Why oh why did I keep getting lessons? Because people didn't believe you back then!!

People didn't say 'I believe you' it was always our fault for looking a certain way, or bringing it on yourself.

I could give more examples but some actually make me angry/disgusted when I think about them.

roundandsideways · 18/08/2020 00:43

Nothing has changed much, when it comes to blaming the victim. That has been my experience. A lot of men feel entitled, and become angry if we attempt to fight back in some way. Nothing has changed in that regard. The thing that always shocks me is when women join the man in blaming the victim. To me that is more upsetting.

Jj2431 · 18/08/2020 00:50

I can't speak for everyone but I have definitely been harrassed a fair few times. I'm in my early thirties now and have experienced being groped inappropriately in bars in the past. I was also sexually assaulted by a work colleague when I was a teenager.

FuckwitMcGee · 18/08/2020 00:50

@MrsTumbletap I had a similar situation with my Head of Year when I was about to finish my GCSEs. To cut a long story short, we were evicted, had to move, the Lea wouldn't help as I had turned 16. Head of Year lived nearby and gave me lifts to school.

He then drove me into a field and informed me that I gave off "mixed signals" and should be more careful.

isntthatnice · 18/08/2020 00:54

I experience it a lot. In work and out of work.
I have been groped by a customer at work and found on social media by other customers.

My daughters who are mid-teens are starting to get it too. They're very pretty girls. My youngest now completely covers up even in hot weather which is not fair because she would love to wear a croptop and shorts but feels uncomfortable at the stares and comments she gets.

I've started shouting pervert and paedo at these men who stare at my obviously underaged daughter. I will not allow it to happen to my children.

caramac04 · 18/08/2020 00:56

@EasilyDelighted

I used to think it had never really happened to me. I've never experienced for example flashing, parents friends or relatives trying it on or similar. But there have been so many more minor incidents that I'd never given much thought to as they are just part of life.

Then I got groped in a crowd a few years ago and it made me think. Does this happen to men? Virtually never. That thing where men touch you on the waist to squeeze past you in pubs, do they do that to other men? No. That thing where they say "smile, it might never happen" in the street. Doesn't happen to men. That time when I couldn't remember which pocket my ringing phone was in and I was patting them to find it "I'll help you with that, snigger". Same when I absent mindedly tugged up a bra strap in the street one day. And you never know when they're going to do it, it catches you off guard and makes you uncomfortable. That's why they do it. To remind you who's in charge.

To remind you who’s in charge.

Chillingly real.

severeine · 18/08/2020 01:02

@Pepperwort

It’s so common that even for a thread like this, on a site called Mumsnet, designed for women and mothers of men’s children; you have to consider whether it hasn’t been started by a troll to get some sadistic salacious kick.

Try telling your friend to look up sexist abuse in the video games industry, there’s enough of it to satisfy anyone there. Personally the first time I felt threatened and had to get away from a male I was round about 9, and by the time I was a teen I had realised this was the regular risk you run if you insist on being female in Britain.

It hasn't, but I see where you're going from. I will see the man in question tomorrow and will tell him the extent of what has been read. I don't think he doesn't mean well and he does at least show an interest but he is frankly clueless about women's lived experience.
OP posts:
SisyphusAndTheRockOfUntidiness · 18/08/2020 01:15

I remember being harassed aged 11. Not sure if that was the first time. DD was first harassed aged 5, she was holding my hand at the time. Nothing physically happened, it was verbal (a conversation I was unfortunate enough to overhear). She didn't realise. I made it clear I'd heard them though, & they scuttled off like cockroaches. Arseholes.

MrsToothyBitch · 18/08/2020 01:16

Yes. I'm a bit dreamy and I've been don't notice people looking, quite often but I have caught people looking down my top quite shamelessly, and really getting an eyeful as they pass. I've been wolf whistled and leered as a teen out with my parents, too. Friend kept a running total of people staring at my bum in Rome- from 5 min after we landed. Had much older men try and entice 16 yo me into bars for a drink in Spain on a school trip, too.

That's the less hard stuff. Had the usual bum pinching, hand up skirt in club etc. Someone once stared at me on a station platform, followed me onto my train and tried to pressure me into going to a casino with them. Had a spiked drink. Had someone try to drag me into a bedroom for sex at a uni halls party. In the last couple of weeks I've had someone stare directly down my dress and try to walk me into a wall in broad daylight on a high street and had a colleague ask me sexual questions. I get lifts home sometimes and accepted one from him because I felt ill. Everyone else (I'm the only girl at work), I trust to drop me off, I gave this man a former address in the centre of town and made out I needed some shopping- didn't want him to know where I live.

The worst was when I was felt up at 19 by someone who thought I was not in a position to remember his hand in my bra and down my jeans. He was old enough to be my father & is a family friend. I still daren't tell my parents. I'm 30. I've avoided him since. That's the one I can't get past.

I now carry legal pepper spray and my house keys, car keys and my spares of each have personal safety alarms on.

RocketFueler · 18/08/2020 01:58

I'm another one who was harassed in Paris. Whilst visiting my sister in Paris we decided to go for an evening picnic in the park by the Eiffel Tower. A random man and his friend came over to sit with us and he then proceeded to tell me that I wasn't his type because my boobs were too small. The two men then sat discussing our chests in detail before begging us to go back with them to where they lived. It took us over an hour to get rid of them and they ruined a perfectly good evening. My sister has lived in Paris for 13 years and during that time she has repeatedly been stalked by men on the metro- they sidle up, ask her out or make some lewd comment, she rejects them, they then follow her when she gets off the metro to wherever it is she's going. She has seen men who've followed her from the metro loitering outside her apartment for days afterwards. It's frightening.

During my teens I was repeatedly propositioned by men 20, 30, 40 years older than me. They would make lewd comments about my body or find ways to touch me. On nights out I would be groped EVERY time I went to a nightclub. Foam parties were the worst as some men would take it even further by trying to put their hands inside my knickers because they could get away with it due to being hidden by the foam.

On one night out I wore a back-lacing top. A guy tried to undo it (fortunately it was double knotted) and when I asked him to leave my top alone he raised his fist to me and called me a "fucking whore". The only reason he backed down was because my then-boyfriend's rugby mates saw what he was doing and intervened.

When I was 23 I got a job in an office and I sat opposite a man in his mid 50s. I was a young, unconfident, unworldly 23 year old. I would chat to this man during the day and he was always really lovely and easy to talk to, like a kindly father figure. I was hundreds of miles away from my family so it felt reassuring having this lovely man looking out for me. He had a wife, and daughters a similar age to me who he spoke very highly about. The Christmas party that year was held at a hotel so some people, including this man, booked a room so that they could drink and not have to get taxis home. This man offered to buy me a drink so I accepted and returned the favour. I spent most of the evening chatting to my work friends in a different room of the hotel to this particular man, but every time I finished my drink he would suddenly appear with another one. As a result I got drunk very quickly. Towards the end of the evening, this man then appeared and asked me to spend the night with him. He told me he thought I was wonderful and he had feelings for me. He then told me in a very explicit way that if I went with him to his room he would pleasure me for hours. I was so drunk and so shocked by what he'd said that I literally burst out laughing. He then repeated what he'd said again and then grabbed my arm and tried to walk me towards the lifts. Fortunately our manager, who had overheard what he'd said, told him to leave me alone and gave him a telling off for his behaviour towards me. Unbelievably, this man was promoted shortly afterwards, despite not being that great at his job, and from that point on he made my work life a misery. Everything I said and did he took issue with. He repeatedly reported me to my manager over nothing (for example, after a member of his team said hello to me, I was reported for saying hello in return as I walked past her desk). Whenever he saw me eating my lunch he would tell me that I was going to get fat or he'd say that my bum was starting to get big and then no man would want me. He tried to blame me for other peoples' mistakes. He kept reading my work related emails that I'd sent to members of his team and tried to use them as evidence to show my manager I wasn't doing my job properly because I was sending emails too frequently (maybe once or twice a day). Every time it was my turn to make the tea, he would follow me into the kitchen and stand so closely behind me that I'd feel his breath on my neck and then he'd insist on trying to reach over me or touch my waist to squeeze past me even though there was plenty of room to move around. Every time I moved anywhere in the office he would stop work and follow me with his eyes. It was the most uncomfortable experience of my life. In the end my manager reported him higher up and he was told he would be let go if he didn't stop this behaviour towards me. I left shortly afterwards so I don't know what happened to him.

These situations are just the tip of the iceberg of what I have experienced. I have to say though, from my perspective, that I have found the day to day sexual harassment has improved a lot over the last five to ten years. I found 1995 - 2005 the worst for me (15 to 25 years old).

Themadcatparade · 18/08/2020 04:17

could potentially be triggering

I’ve had this conversation with my DP before too and he was shocked and I had a feeling he didn’t believe me that it’s a thing that women go through, as it starts at a very young age. I struggle to deal with the memories. Off the top of my head...

  • I’ve been wolf whistled by men in cars, men at building sites, randomly on the street. The majority of this happened when I was a young child/teen, particularly when I was in my school uniform.
  • been followed on more than one occasion by men in cars when I was a teenager. I have memories of one group stalking me and being frightened trying to hide behind cars to make my way home safely.
  • had a man grab me and try and pull me
in to his van who was driving down an alleyway when I was on holiday with my friends when I was 20. He hurt me and it left a bruise on my arm and boob from his grip.
  • been groped at school by classmates, one of them managed to touch me ‘down there’ inappropriately as a joke. I was begged not to tell the Headteacher. I thought if I told I would be ‘making a scene.’
  • been groped in a bar on a night out, on multiple occasions
  • had a drink ‘accidentally on purpose’ thrown over me in an attempt to ‘chat me up’ (I wasn’t that drunk, and overheard the men talking about it before it happened. I got called a psycho and was told I ‘wasn’t that fit’ when I confronted him about it)
  • been hit on by a man in a bar when I was 16, but when he found out I was in my last year of school I was asked to meet with him wearing my school uniform
  • been given a number of a man who worked in a bar when I was on a family holiday, and messaged to meet him when I was 14. My dad was warned by my cousins who were worried and he took it in to his own hands. All my aunties got involved. I fell out with my dad for embarrassing me and overreacting. I couldn’t see what was wrong with the situation. Looking back now, the man must have been my dads age, late 40’s at the time at least.
  • woken up by a ‘friend’ molesting me When I was 15. I was too scared to tell him to stop and pretended I was asleep the whole time.
  • has an attempted rape on me by a ‘friend’ when I was 15.
  • had a boy at school slap my bum so hard it left a hand shaped bruise on my cheek. But it was okay, because he did this to all the girls.
  • had a friend of the man I was seeing corner me and try and forcefully kiss me and grope me in a bar. During my first sexual experience with this man I was seeing, he tried to get me to reinact the scene of what happened with his friend, because it turned me on. I was 17. I found out later on after he used me that he lied about his age all along. He was in his 30s and told me he was 24.
  • had a boy put his hands forcefully in my knickers when I was dancing with him at a school dance when I was 16. Again, I was too frightened to tell him to stop.
  • had an 18 year old message me inappropriately when I was 12 - I remember sexual content and specifically ‘I can’t wait until you turn 13 and then you will officially be a teenager...’

-had inappropriate comments made about me in a sexual way by my uncle.

-other general things, like comments about my looks, being told by men I should wear make up etc etc.

I don’t know any female I am not close to who have been lucky enough not to have had any experience of sexual harassment by men. Fortunately, this had got less and less frequent as I have aged. It makes me wonder what twisted world we live in where it’s mainly young girls who are targeted. Is it because society has over-sexualised the young, or that younger girls are seen as more weaker and tolerating of this behaviour, or both?

The most frightening thing about this list of mine, is that I didn’t even realise I had a list until a few years ago. This was all normalised to me as a child, me and my friends used to make jokes about it as it was just a normal and acceptable part of being a girl. It took me until late twenties to realise that it is far beyond normal, and my heart breaks for every woman who has experienced similar and has now realised, or has experienced this and forgotten due to the normality of it being just another memory of growing up.