More equitable access to good unis for state school applicants

[herecomesthsun]

So I was horrified at the A levels fiasco. The system seems to have been particularly biased against applicants from state schools and deprived areas and weighted in favour of applicants from private schools, especially smaller ones.

Looking at this mess, it is very hard to see how this can be sorted out before the start of the next academic year. But I would really like to discuss here whether it is possible to help the situation in the medium term.

Thankfully, my own children are far from exam years, but I well remember how I felt as an 18 year old, the first person to go to University from my side of the family. I would have been devastated to have been awarded low grades, not through my own merits, or lack of them, but because of a bumbling, incompetent grading system.

It seems to me that Universities have the power to right some of these wrongs, but they are limited in what they can do for the new starters of 2020.

Although pupils from private schools often fare well in gaining places at University, it is fairly well recognised that pupils from state schools often have more potential and ahem actual ability once they are there. Universities have been trying to recruit more state school candidates and this is not just social justice but has large potential advantages in drawing in better candidates.

Worcester College, Oxford, however, have been a shining example in offering 83% of its 2020 places to state school applicants and in honouring the offer, irrespective of the Mickey Mouse grades allocated in August.

This would be an unusually high percentage of state school pupils accepted in an Oxbridge college, even though only about 6-7% of UK pupils go to a private school see here

The proportion of state students at a third of Russell group universities actually
fell in 2019, before covid. (It might be sensible to exclude specialist art/music etc.colleges for the purposes of this discussion.)

I am wondering whether, in light of the continued disruption to the education system, there would be an advantage in formalising a more proportionate offer- for example that a University would need to offer a minimum percentage of its UK entrant places to state school applicants for 2021. This could perhaps start at a proportion closer to the current status quo (which can be 50:50 for Oxbridge) but increase over time. Although it would be great to go for a good ball park figure of 80% or more state school out of UK applicants, for Russell Group.

I would argue that this is more than fair to private schools, as only 7% of students attend those, (and there are more options open for this group,for example increasing numbers attend overseas universities.)

This would give some potential extra wiggle room for some very good state students disappointed this year to re-apply in future.

And, if there was some provision for these places to be set aside for state students, then if A levels are affected by covid issues again next year in some way, there would be some protection and reassurance for UK state students. This might offer a greater feeling of hope to next year's students.

There is no perfect answer in the current situation, but I think this approach would be a statement of good faith and support for our best state school students in the current climate of uncertainty.

AIBU - leave university entrance as it is

AINBU - vote for a system with some protection of access to university places for the brightest state students

I think it is too early to draw any conclusions from all of this. I don't think it has been specifically weighted in favour of private schools compared to state, it is just how the flaws in the algorithm has worked. Ie no matter what school, the algorithm assumes someone in each class will always get a d or e grade, hence a potential medical student being downgraded from predicted A to D.

What hasn't helped is some teachers grading all their class as A or A* and the head teacher not sending the grades back and comparing it to overall past school performance ....we probably wouldn't have such an awful mess as now, as if they went with predicted grades the inflation would be ridiculous (as it is in Scotland) and how on earth do universities discern then!

Trying to put together a system like this during a pandemic was never going to be easy and there are equally no easy answers

The thing is, that there has been very significant bias against states schools in general and towards independents (especially small independents) in particular.

So kids that have got As and 9s all through their careers are being hard hit, and their dreams derailed.

The results don't look anything like last years for many schools, with big 6th forms hit hard and small independents jubilant.

You would think that the committees set up to manage this would have some awareness of the bias in their outcomes, even if they didn't set out to destroy the dreams of the most aspirational state school kids.

It seems to me that starting in a small! way to address some of the bias at University level would be a good idea in itself, as well as protecting against a further "fiasco" (Keir Starmer's words).

Yes, at any one time, only 7% of pupils are privately educated, but the percentage of sixth formers - so potential uni applicants - who are privately educated is 14%.

So Worcester College is only 3% off total representativeness.

I think 20% of sixth formers are at private schools - the 7 or 8% is at younger ages. Also any school which accurately predicts results so state grammars, posh comps etc too also was rightly accepted and any school which tends to get the estimates wrong was marked down which is really pretty fair enough. However I was against cancelling school and exams from day 1 so I am certainly not happy and I would recommend upper sixth pupils do the A levels this Autumn and put off university a year so they have true results in hand unless the results are what they expected.

YABU anyway though, because it would be punishing children for a decision made by their parents.

The idea that they can just go to university overseas is ridiculous. Most private school parents are not super rich - they can’t just fund the hundreds of thousands of dollars needed for US tuition fees at the drop of a hat.

One other thing - 7% of students are in private education at any one time, but around 15 or 16% are privately educated at some point in their school career.

They aren’t immutable categories you know - plenty of people move from state primaries to private secondaries and vice versa.

How are universities supposed to categorise people who attended private schools until they were 16, but then went to state school for A-levels?

How would this work? Genuine question! A state school C over private A? Or a state school A with lower actual % of result over higher private A?

My DDad used to be involved in Oxbridge admissions. Late 90s his college didn’t have an APPLICANT from a non selective state school who didn’t have a parent in education. University is FAR too late to sort this problem.

I’d also like to know what % of A and A* grades are attained by independent and grammar school pupils...

You are sadly incorrect in many of your assumptions. All students have actually been equally treated, in that any cohort with 15 of more students, had their CAG's disregarded, whether in state, grammer or private. The only difference, and therefore the statistical difference, has been that more private schools have fewer pupils, and those subjects with small cohorts, were given their CAGS. You will see from the many threads in Education that Grammer Schools and Private schools have also had ridiculous sets of grades, and they will be putting forward appeals in their biggest subject groups too.

Your assertion that only 7% of pupils go to private school is also off balance. By the time they get to ALevels, the balance is more like 20%, and then you need to take into account Grammer Schools as well, who are selective, and go to top universities in greater numbers as well.

If you are asserting that disadvantaged students should get contextual offers, they already do.

In your scenario, you are denying a significant number of top performing students access to university. Where are they going to go?

The issue about % from private school is tricky because some private schools are highly selective so recruit those likely to get into top universities, some kids will be on academic scholarships. My dd got a 70% bursary for private boarding 6th form (based on income and academics) she worked like crazy to get her 4 a levels. Some of her friends had 100% bursaries

Don't assume all kids at private school are wealthy, some earned their chances, some of the kids were super bright from chaotic homes, 1 was from foster care.

The Scottish government has removed the student number cap and provided extra funds for one year to help the unis this year. The way our system works ( applying with penulitmate years grades in hand) means that places for very academic courses could be given conditional places rather than unconditional. In summary pupils have up to two years worth of exams relevant to uni applications so this will ameliorate some of the issues. Its a shame AS levels were done away with or kids in England would be in a similar position. We also have centrally set prelims (mocks) which are the same in every school which has helped.

There are certainly quite a few kids from state schools in the media offered places at Oxbridge/ med school who came a cropper with the A level results, so it wouldn't have been too late for them to have a fairer system.

Back in the day, I got a conditional offer of 2 Es for Oxbridge, having effectively taught myself the entrance exam. My husband got an offer of 3 Es for Keele .

If universities are able to identify really good students, they can circumnavigate A level glitches to a large extent with low offers.

This is a really, really complex issue.
One of the biggest issue is that certain groups of students just don't apply to elite universities....even when they have the right qualifications.

All universities have an access agreement and I order to charge full fees they have to commit to widening access. Some are better than others obviously but it isn't just a case of universities not offering certain students places - more needs to be done to encourage these students in the first place.

@DelurkingAJ

My DDad used to be involved in Oxbridge admissions. Late 90s his college didn’t have an APPLICANT from a non selective state school who didn’t have a parent in education. University is FAR too late to sort this problem.

I’d also like to know what % of A and A* grades are attained by independent and grammar school pupils...

The proportion of A-level grades at grade A and above has seen a rise at private schools this year more than double any type of state school, Ofqual data reveals.

From the Times educational Supplement (which is behind a firewall)
"... the percentage of A levels scoring an A or A* rose by 4.7 percentage points in independent schools this year, from 43.9 per cent in 2019 to 48.6 per cent in 2020.

This rise is more than double that of any seen in the state sector. In comprehensives, the proportion of pupils achieving the top grade rose by 2 pp, in academies by 1.7 pp, and in grammars by 1.2 pp."

*encourage to apply in the first place

@SueEllenMishke

This is a really, really complex issue. One of the biggest issue is that certain groups of students just don't apply to elite universities....even when they have the right qualifications.

All universities have an access agreement and I order to charge full fees they have to commit to widening access. Some are better than others obviously but it isn't just a case of universities not offering certain students places - more needs to be done to encourage these students in the first place.

Might students be more encouraged to apply if they felt they had a fairer chance of being accepted?

And I am not suggesting that they don't offer places to private schools at all.

I am suggesting that they continue to offer a higher proportion of places to pupils from private schools, but one that is less out of kilter with what is happening in society.

It's not so much about fear of rejection (although that plays a part) it's mainly about fear of fitting in.

Or should I say say fear of not fitting in and that's a really difficult thing to address as you're starting to look at the culture of an institution

I wonder if a fairer system would be to award grades in the context of the institution. So an A is harder to get if you are in a school where a high % get As. Would mean high achieving kids staying in state system and not just at Outstanding schools with £££ catchment. This would benefit all pupils surely?

It's a bit chicken and egg isn't it, if more kids from the year above went, it would be encouraging. I think this would be a really good time for outreach, to show that the universities care about recruiting state students. There is so much about education in the media, it would get a lot of erm media attention. And students are demonstrating in despair at what has happened to their education. It would be sensitive to make this a time of improved access.

This is a really, really complex issue.
One of the biggest issue is that certain groups of students just don't apply to elite universities....even when they have the right qualifications.

This ^^

www.tes.com/news/state-school-teachers-dont-advise-their-bright-pupils-apply-oxbridge-poll-shows

And most definitely this ^^
-----------------------

I went to a comprehensive in South Wales. (1980's).
They ran an Oxbridge entrance class. It usually had around 20ish students. They expected to get at least 4 kids in, - and they did. You can't lay all this at the door of entrenched privilege, - you have to actually put yourself forward, and some teachers aren't helping their pupils (see article above)

@herecomesthsun

It's a bit chicken and egg isn't it, if more kids from the year above went, it would be encouraging. I think this would be a really good time for outreach, to show that the universities care about recruiting state students. There is so much about education in the media, it would get a lot of erm media attention. And students are demonstrating in despair at what has happened to their education. It would be sensitive to make this a time of improved access.

You do realise that every single university has an outreach team....they are already doing this and have been for years! It's a really difficult issue to resolve as there are so many different factors at play. This exact topic was the focus of my masters and PhD ... universities play a part but so does culture, parents education ( and attitude to learning), school, peers, careers guidance.....the list is endless.

@rooty123

I wonder if a fairer system would be to award grades in the context of the institution. So an A is harder to get if you are in a school where a high % get As. Would mean high achieving kids staying in state system and not just at Outstanding schools with £££ catchment. This would benefit all pupils surely?

That would destroy the point of grammar schools though. I didn't go to one myself, but I would have loved to have been at a selective (or so I thought, in retrospect I might have been quite accustomed to being top of the class).

Alan Garner (children's author) and John Carey (English Professor) have both written very interesting autobiographies which are essays in praise of the grammar school system, which offered both of them a different life. I think we need more of that sorta thing and not less.

Oxford really needs to do a lot of work here, it's one of the lowest for state school applicants - 58% in 2017/18 with St Andrews and Durham being similar. Bristol (my local) was one of the better ones at 66% but there is still more to be done. The percentages will perhaps drop this year but I am hearing that universities are being 'generous' and 'kind' - of course they are not as they want the £££.

wonder if a fairer system would be to award grades in the context of the institution. So an A is harder to get if you are in a school where a high % get As. Would mean high achieving kids staying in state system and not just at Outstanding schools with £££ catchment. This would benefit all pupils surely

Universities already do contextual offers