More equitable access to good unis for state school applicants

[herecomesthsun]

So I was horrified at the A levels fiasco. The system seems to have been particularly biased against applicants from state schools and deprived areas and weighted in favour of applicants from private schools, especially smaller ones.

Looking at this mess, it is very hard to see how this can be sorted out before the start of the next academic year. But I would really like to discuss here whether it is possible to help the situation in the medium term.

Thankfully, my own children are far from exam years, but I well remember how I felt as an 18 year old, the first person to go to University from my side of the family. I would have been devastated to have been awarded low grades, not through my own merits, or lack of them, but because of a bumbling, incompetent grading system.

It seems to me that Universities have the power to right some of these wrongs, but they are limited in what they can do for the new starters of 2020.

Although pupils from private schools often fare well in gaining places at University, it is fairly well recognised that pupils from state schools often have more potential and ahem actual ability once they are there. Universities have been trying to recruit more state school candidates and this is not just social justice but has large potential advantages in drawing in better candidates.

Worcester College, Oxford, however, have been a shining example in offering 83% of its 2020 places to state school applicants and in honouring the offer, irrespective of the Mickey Mouse grades allocated in August.

This would be an unusually high percentage of state school pupils accepted in an Oxbridge college, even though only about 6-7% of UK pupils go to a private school see here

The proportion of state students at a third of Russell group universities actually
fell in 2019, before covid. (It might be sensible to exclude specialist art/music etc.colleges for the purposes of this discussion.)

I am wondering whether, in light of the continued disruption to the education system, there would be an advantage in formalising a more proportionate offer- for example that a University would need to offer a minimum percentage of its UK entrant places to state school applicants for 2021. This could perhaps start at a proportion closer to the current status quo (which can be 50:50 for Oxbridge) but increase over time. Although it would be great to go for a good ball park figure of 80% or more state school out of UK applicants, for Russell Group.

I would argue that this is more than fair to private schools, as only 7% of students attend those, (and there are more options open for this group,for example increasing numbers attend overseas universities.)

This would give some potential extra wiggle room for some very good state students disappointed this year to re-apply in future.

And, if there was some provision for these places to be set aside for state students, then if A levels are affected by covid issues again next year in some way, there would be some protection and reassurance for UK state students. This might offer a greater feeling of hope to next year's students.

There is no perfect answer in the current situation, but I think this approach would be a statement of good faith and support for our best state school students in the current climate of uncertainty.

AIBU - leave university entrance as it is

AINBU - vote for a system with some protection of access to university places for the brightest state students

@SueEllenMishke

Or should I say say fear of not fitting in and that's a really difficult thing to address as you're starting to look at the culture of an institution

I think that's a real issue. I have been at Bristol Uni on student arrival days before now and you see some students turning up with horse riding kit, their own cars, 40 inch tvs and expensive branded luggage and others coming with a few carrier bags/cardboard boxes and a suitcase. I've only ever been at the accommodation more popular with state school pupils, I imagine is more noticeable at the ones like Wills which are popular with private school students more than the modern halls are.

@SueEllenMishke

wonder if a fairer system would be to award grades in the context of the institution. So an A is harder to get if you are in a school where a high % get As. Would mean high achieving kids staying in state system and not just at Outstanding schools with £££ catchment. This would benefit all pupils surely

Universities already do contextual offers

Could they do more? It is hard to see a downside to this.

Like I says before, offers aren't really the main issue. It's getting students to apply in the first place.

We had a teacher at primary school who encouraged my mum to think I was Oxbridge material and my parents sort of clung to the idea that this was where I was headed (we were very poor).

What is happening now is the opposite of that, the information in the media is that state schools who have got As all the way are being downgraded through no fault of their own and rejected by the older unis. It's truly awful, and the percentages of state students taken up before all this were not great to begin with.

The state schools that are good at getting pupils to Oxbridge are the big 6th forms like Hills Cambridge and Peter Symonds and also the grammars, which are exactly the schools most affected by getting fewer As comparatively at A level. Terrible.

therhubarbbrothers I would have been one of those kids arriving at Bristol with my suitcase and a stack of black binbags.

I hadn't applied to Oxbridge (despite being invited to by the director of studies at my state 6th form college) because I couldn't see how I'd ever fit in there.

The irony of ending up at Bristol !

It's pretty depressing to see how little has changed since 1987.

We need to do something, but it's not as simple as whacking a number target on it. State includes schools that are effectively selective/private because it's so hard to get in/expensive to buy a house nearby. If all we do is give a load of places to those kids or does nothing to widen access. Equally, I knew a kid who went to a private school because of his dyslexia and general need for small classes and attention. His brother went state. Wouldn't seem right to penalise brother #1.

Also this starts way earlier than university; you don't fix it by bluntly shoving a bunch of state kids up, just as you don't fix A Level predictions by saying 'Well the algorithm says one of you needs to get a U. Sorry, your predicted C will now be a U.' We fix it by addressing the inequalities before the kids even get to school. That means funding schools properly, supporting parents, having Sure Start centers, making sure all families can afford to feed their children, involving parents who may be intimidated by their own lack of educational achievement in their own children's education, by making sure that bright kids are stretched, whatever school they go to, by addressing the reasons that some kids are disruptive with proper emotional support, parenting support and SEND provision, because those kids deserve those things too. The problems in our education system run far deeper than university admissions.

The state schools that are good at getting pupils to Oxbridge are the big 6th forms like Hills Cambridge and Peter Symonds and also the grammars, which are exactly the schools most affected by getting fewer As comparatively at A level. Terrible

I will repeat once again. It is ALL schools. Three top performing indies in my local town have the same problem. Worst results in years, far fewer A*'s and A's. In some subjects where they have never had less than a B, they have students awarded C&D's. The whole thing is a complete shit show.

yy so my parents didn't have a car. I turned up at Uni with carrier bags & a rucksack as I remember.

Yes we need to have lots of social change for society to be completely different, but it seems to me that this is one area where a change could make a difference that would be topical and relevant right now, so is worth discussing

Theysee, my son was at Willis hall (he just finished at Bristol) and his bock was other than him almost 100% state school pupils as Wills has changed. His twin was at Churchill hall which did still have more private school pupils but even there there were state pupils. Also some state pupils have more money than private as some privates are on scholarships (one of my son's friends had a full scholarship at his boarding school for example) and some states are rich ( one person there I found has a £3m house near mine but went to a state school and got a much lower contextualised offer.... what a muddle the system is when we move away from pure grade entry). Some state school university entrants have big TVS and lots of money precisely because their parents have not put every last penny from 4 corner shop workers parents and family into a set of sixth form school fees.

It happened at private schools too. My DS was never Oxbridge material but still had 2 exams downgraded. Many of his friends missed out on their first choice uni's because of downgrades. His is a quite large selective indy - most of the kids will do well because they are very bright, not because they are at a private school.

@herecomesthsun

We had a teacher at primary school who encouraged my mum to think I was Oxbridge material and my parents sort of clung to the idea that this was where I was headed (we were very poor).

What is happening now is the opposite of that, the information in the media is that state schools who have got As all the way are being downgraded through no fault of their own and rejected by the older unis. It's truly awful, and the percentages of state students taken up before all this were not great to begin with.

The state schools that are good at getting pupils to Oxbridge are the big 6th forms like Hills Cambridge and Peter Symonds and also the grammars, which are exactly the schools most affected by getting fewer As comparatively at A level. Terrible.

Firstly, take everything you read in the media with a pinch of salt. MSM is really anti-HE.

Secondly, don't place all the blame on universities. Look at the government policies that have contributed .... the lack of funding in schools, getting rid of Aimhigher, the decimation and de-professionalisation of the career guidance sector. The latter being a HUGE issue.

It's really difficult for universities to make offers to applicants that don't apply in the first place! This is the issue we need to be addressing.

Sorry - most of the kids will NORMALLY do very well..... This year is a fiasco for everyone ☹️

I will repeat once again. It is ALL schools.

But - not all schools to the same extent.

And I'll repeat again- bear with me - there has been a rise in As and A*s but disproportionate to indies

• 4.7% increase across indies
• 0.6% big state 6th forms
• 1.2% grammars
• 2% comprehensives

within that the differential across state and secondary is pretty disadvantageous to good state secondaries, a grade here and there can be crucial for someone's future

Three top performing indies in my local town have the same problem. Worst results in years, far fewer A's and A's*

Here the A* and A grades have gone up by 5% at the one school, I suspect the other hasn't done so well as they normally make a huge fanfare over their results - ads on buses and so on - and they aren't even on their webpage this year.

I agree that its the culture (perceived or real) of an institution which is often puts state school pupils off applying to some universities. I was the first in my family to go to University. Back in 2003 I visited Bristol with my dad and it was very clear that the rich students had the nice, expensive accommodation and the poorer students had accommodation a long way from campus that was much more outdated.

The offer Bristol gave me was absolutely adjusted to take account of the fact that I came from a state school but once I'd seen 18 year olds jumping out of their convertible sports cars dressed head to toe in Jack Wills (this was the noughties!) on the open day I absolutely felt like I wouldn't fit in and wouldn't be as "clever" as everyone else

I really feel for all the A Level students who will have been impacted by this complete fiasco this week but also on a deeper level I certainly look back at that 17 year old who didn't apply to "posh" universities and think how sad it is that things don't seem to have changed. (P.s. I now have a successful career and two children and would encourage them to apply to any university they wanted to and to believe in their own abilities!)

there are more options open for [privately educated DC],for example increasing numbers attend overseas universities.

I was the first person in my family ever to go to university. I was privately educated. I had a scholarship, and my family scrimped and saved for years to pay the rest.

The ‘options’ you describe above weren’t open to me, or many of the other families at my school. Most of whom were working full time and forgoing cars, holidays, new clothes, trips and meals out to scrimp and save to afford school fees. You seem to have a deluded view of the demographics of many private schools.

Universities should recruit on ability. I’m guessing that when you/your family need a teacher, doctor, surgeon, lawyer etc you don’t quibble about their schooling? You try to select the best.

The issue is that the exam system is inherently unfair, and this algorithm has entrenched and randomised the unfairness so we can see it clearly. This is really good about why debra-kidd.com/2020/08/15/what-really-went-wrong-with-exams-2020/
Sort that out, then look at university entrance. I agree that some institutions could do with a heavy push in the direction of inclusivity.

My dc are all at state schools.

Do you know much about the process other than what you've read in the media?

What do you think is the situation this year compared to normal?

Private schools happy with results/states schools unhappy and severely marked down?

Reduced numbers getting into their first choice university?

Grades down?

More people failing than ever?

Universities being strict and refusing to let people in?

Universities prejudice against state schools?

Reality:
More people got into their first choice uni on results day than ever before 80% up from 75% is what I've been told. Other figures I've seen are higher, but that's from after results day.

Some private schools are unhappy with results and saying worst ever. Some state schools are happy and saying best ever. It seems to be more on size of cohort than type of school. Grammars seem to be hit quite badly.

A/A*s are on average up from previous years.

Passes are up from previous years.

Many universities have accepted people on reduced grades. However the government put a cap on numbers early on in lockdown. This was entirely to protect the smaller and less prestigious universities, because otherwise the ones more people want to go to could overfill their spaces leaving too few for the smaller ones. That would mean those could go bankrupt without the student fees.
This means the universities can't accept more, even if they would happily do so, and they standardly over offer by a huge amount, around 4x the places they have.

What we're seeing in the media is the upset child who's results are down. Thing is, look on here in past years, this happens every year. This year it feels less fair because they haven't messed up themselves.
But it's this year the media is choosing to show those cases, whereas normally they headline "results up, pupil achieved 15A*".They could have run those stories this year, but have chosen not to.
I was speaking to a teacher at a small state school who had a good set of results and their first child off to Oxbridge. They wanted the paper to do a little article because they were so pleased. The article the paper ran focused on that many people were disappointed (which they weren't at that school) and mentioned their in passing with no comment about how they were pleased.

And over the last few years, universities have made huge steps to try and increase the state school numbers. The give contextual offers, they will give leeway to a state school candidate. At dd1's university, the standard offer for her course is A A A. Some people had contextual offers of BBB. That's a big difference.

I think there are questions to be asked, but you aren't asking the right ones.

It's interesting that someone put:
Oxford really needs to do a lot of work here, it's one of the lowest for state school applicants - 58% in 2017/18 with St Andrews and Durham being similar. Bristol (my local) was one of the better ones at 66% but there is still more to be done
Because actually Bristol is known to be one of the worst for state people going there.
In that year, 2017 they only had around 60% state school enter the uni-so less percentage than applied even.
Last year they were 11th highest in number of private school entrants. And no, neither Oxbridge was top.

So you propose to make up for the failings of state schools by gerrymandering the university entrance requirement to prejudice private schools.

No suggestion that the route cause is failures within the state system. Far easier to exclude the competition than address poor schooling and effect real social change.

But will it aid social mobility? Won’t those grammas or top state schools from leafy suburbs where middle class parents have bought in-catchment houses simply become more exclusive as they send more and more DC to top universities. Whilst poor state schools continue to fail their brightest pupils. Yet liberals can pat themselves on the back at having achieved a ‘better’ state school ratio.

Everything witchend said.

But hey, everyone loves to blame the universities!

@Witchend

My dc are all at state schools.

Do you know much about the process other than what you've read in the media?

What do you think is the situation this year compared to normal?

Private schools happy with results/states schools unhappy and severely marked down?

Reduced numbers getting into their first choice university?

Grades down?

More people failing than ever?

Universities being strict and refusing to let people in?

Universities prejudice against state schools?

Reality:
More people got into their first choice uni on results day than ever before 80% up from 75% is what I've been told. Other figures I've seen are higher, but that's from after results day.

Some private schools are unhappy with results and saying worst ever. Some state schools are happy and saying best ever. It seems to be more on size of cohort than type of school. Grammars seem to be hit quite badly.

A/A*s are on average up from previous years.

Passes are up from previous years.

Many universities have accepted people on reduced grades. However the government put a cap on numbers early on in lockdown. This was entirely to protect the smaller and less prestigious universities, because otherwise the ones more people want to go to could overfill their spaces leaving too few for the smaller ones. That would mean those could go bankrupt without the student fees.
This means the universities can't accept more, even if they would happily do so, and they standardly over offer by a huge amount, around 4x the places they have.

What we're seeing in the media is the upset child who's results are down. Thing is, look on here in past years, this happens every year. This year it feels less fair because they haven't messed up themselves.
But it's this year the media is choosing to show those cases, whereas normally they headline "results up, pupil achieved 15A*".They could have run those stories this year, but have chosen not to.
I was speaking to a teacher at a small state school who had a good set of results and their first child off to Oxbridge. They wanted the paper to do a little article because they were so pleased. The article the paper ran focused on that many people were disappointed (which they weren't at that school) and mentioned their in passing with no comment about how they were pleased.

And over the last few years, universities have made huge steps to try and increase the state school numbers. The give contextual offers, they will give leeway to a state school candidate. At dd1's university, the standard offer for her course is A A A. Some people had contextual offers of BBB. That's a big difference.

I think there are questions to be asked, but you aren't asking the right ones.

It's interesting that someone put:
Oxford really needs to do a lot of work here, it's one of the lowest for state school applicants - 58% in 2017/18 with St Andrews and Durham being similar. Bristol (my local) was one of the better ones at 66% but there is still more to be done
Because actually Bristol is known to be one of the worst for state people going there.
In that year, 2017 they only had around 60% state school enter the uni-so less percentage than applied even.
Last year they were 11th highest in number of private school entrants. And no, neither Oxbridge was top.

I posted about Bristol. epigram.org.uk/2019/02/19/only-65-of-bristol-university-students-came-from-state-schools-in-2016-17/

Only 65.9 per cent of students admitted to the University of Bristol in the 2017-18 academic year came from state-schools, falling below the university’s benchmark of 79.3 per cent.

The University of Oxford remains the university accepting the lowest proportion of state school pupils, with just 58 per cent starting in 2017-18, closely followed by the University of St Andrews, on 60 per cent, and the University of Durham and Imperial College, on 61 per cent. Cambridge University was next, with 63 per cent of its intake from state schools, with the universities of Bristol and Exeter on 66 per cent.

@witchend

There seems to be a particular problem with comparative differences in how A and A * are treated across state and indie (I really apologise for repeating myself on this one) and this was the point I made. If students are competing to get places at very good universities on high offers, then this is an important difference.

It isn't affecting my family directly but I am reading about a lot of distress in our local media, across comprehensive and selective schools. The heads are effectively speaking with one voice on this. However, since overall grades have gone up slightly, even in in state schools on average, it is great that it has worked out for some pupils.

By the way, I have previously made some of the points you mention myself.

I did not know however that the government had put some sort of cap on offers. I can see that this might protect smaller universities, but , depending how it was done (and I really don't know anything about this) it could also favour indies.

Many people have commented that many members of the government, and possibly their own children (and the head of Ofqual) were educated privately; I would not comment myself on whether this has any bearing on how things have been managed.

@SueEllenMishke

I'm not blaming the Universities, am I?

I am wondering whether they could bring some light into this very difficult situation by bypassing the reliance on dodgy A level grades, especially since they are quite able to make contextual offers.

@Bagatelle1

So you propose to make up for the failings of state schools by gerrymandering the university entrance requirement to prejudice private schools.

No suggestion that the route cause is failures within the state system. Far easier to exclude the competition than address poor schooling and effect real social change.

But will it aid social mobility? Won’t those grammas or top state schools from leafy suburbs where middle class parents have bought in-catchment houses simply become more exclusive as they send more and more DC to top universities. Whilst poor state schools continue to fail their brightest pupils. Yet liberals can pat themselves on the back at having achieved a ‘better’ state school ratio.

Nope. I am suggesting we perpetuate an unfair system in which private schools get more than their fair share of places at good universities.

I am merely suggesting that we could try putting some measures in place, to a small degree, to make the process slightly less unfair.

I am not being very prescriptive about the measures, and starting small might be the best way forward. But I think it would be really encouraging for state students, and would get lots of publicity, which would be good for the outreach process in various ways and would serve pour encourager les autres who are about to apply to Uni.

I am also interested to hear what other people have to say in this argument

[quote herecomesthsun]@SueEllenMishke

I'm not blaming the Universities, am I?

I am wondering whether they could bring some light into this very difficult situation by bypassing the reliance on dodgy A level grades, especially since they are quite able to make contextual offers.[/quote]
How do you know they aren't? Most are!
In fact Worcester College, Oxford made the decision to honour all offers made before results were released as they felt they had enough information about the applicants without a level results and they were concerned they would be unreliable.

It's standard practice for universities to over offer. The majority can't take every student who has been made an offer - the government has imposed a 5% cap and we simply just don't have the staff or space, especially this year when we're having to adhered to social distancing.

Every single year there are 1000's of students that don't get their first or insurance choice. That's what clearing is for!

You are basing your opinions on what you're reading in the media but it's not an accurate or complete picture.