More equitable access to good unis for state school applicants

[herecomesthsun]

So I was horrified at the A levels fiasco. The system seems to have been particularly biased against applicants from state schools and deprived areas and weighted in favour of applicants from private schools, especially smaller ones.

Looking at this mess, it is very hard to see how this can be sorted out before the start of the next academic year. But I would really like to discuss here whether it is possible to help the situation in the medium term.

Thankfully, my own children are far from exam years, but I well remember how I felt as an 18 year old, the first person to go to University from my side of the family. I would have been devastated to have been awarded low grades, not through my own merits, or lack of them, but because of a bumbling, incompetent grading system.

It seems to me that Universities have the power to right some of these wrongs, but they are limited in what they can do for the new starters of 2020.

Although pupils from private schools often fare well in gaining places at University, it is fairly well recognised that pupils from state schools often have more potential and ahem actual ability once they are there. Universities have been trying to recruit more state school candidates and this is not just social justice but has large potential advantages in drawing in better candidates.

Worcester College, Oxford, however, have been a shining example in offering 83% of its 2020 places to state school applicants and in honouring the offer, irrespective of the Mickey Mouse grades allocated in August.

This would be an unusually high percentage of state school pupils accepted in an Oxbridge college, even though only about 6-7% of UK pupils go to a private school see here

The proportion of state students at a third of Russell group universities actually
fell in 2019, before covid. (It might be sensible to exclude specialist art/music etc.colleges for the purposes of this discussion.)

I am wondering whether, in light of the continued disruption to the education system, there would be an advantage in formalising a more proportionate offer- for example that a University would need to offer a minimum percentage of its UK entrant places to state school applicants for 2021. This could perhaps start at a proportion closer to the current status quo (which can be 50:50 for Oxbridge) but increase over time. Although it would be great to go for a good ball park figure of 80% or more state school out of UK applicants, for Russell Group.

I would argue that this is more than fair to private schools, as only 7% of students attend those, (and there are more options open for this group,for example increasing numbers attend overseas universities.)

This would give some potential extra wiggle room for some very good state students disappointed this year to re-apply in future.

And, if there was some provision for these places to be set aside for state students, then if A levels are affected by covid issues again next year in some way, there would be some protection and reassurance for UK state students. This might offer a greater feeling of hope to next year's students.

There is no perfect answer in the current situation, but I think this approach would be a statement of good faith and support for our best state school students in the current climate of uncertainty.

AIBU - leave university entrance as it is

AINBU - vote for a system with some protection of access to university places for the brightest state students

"Orchidsindoors

A lot of the universities offered unconditional offers to students once the decision was made to cancel exams."

"Universities were told specifically not to do this by the OfS"

Well, they did it anyway. I know lots of students from different unis who got unconditional offers.

@Orchidsindoors

"Orchidsindoors

A lot of the universities offered unconditional offers to students once the decision was made to cancel exams."

"Universities were told specifically not to do this by the OfS"

Well, they did it anyway. I know lots of students from different unis who got unconditional offers.

It was fine if it was part of your standard practice but not if you suddenly decided to convert all your offers to unconditional because of COVID.

Lots of universities offer blanket unconditional offers in normal times.

Lots of universities offer blanket unconditional offers in normal times.

My eldest got offered one, they were most shocked when she turned it down in favour of a conditional offer elsewhere

At my private school a lot of children go to state schools for 6th form as they know there will be leniency in grades when applying to Oxbridge etc. After doing their A levels at state comprehensives student who were once average students in the private selective sector are now top of the class in the state system. Universities see that they come from 'poorer areas' and give them lower grade targets accordingly.

@therhubarbbrothers

Lots of universities offer blanket unconditional offers in normal times.

My eldest got offered one, they were most shocked when she turned it down in favour of a conditional offer elsewhere

Good on her!! I really, really object to blanket unconditional offers!

Good on her!! I really, really object to blanket unconditional offers!

I'm not a fan. DD felt that she wanted to earn her place at university and not have it handed to her so that was one reason she turned it down. On paper both universities were equal - you couldn't put one as firm and one as insurance as the standard entry grades were identical. She firmed the one giving her a conditional offer (and exceeded it) and picked a much lower ranking university as insurance as she was prepared to go there but said she was going to work her hardest to make sure she didn't.

"It was fine if it was part of your standard practice but not if you suddenly decided to convert all your offers to unconditional because of COVID.

Lots of universities offer blanket unconditional offers in normal times."

All the ones I know of had conditional offers which immediately turned into unconditional offers in the days after the announcement that A level exams were cancelled. So yes, because of covid.
They said in the letter that if their results fell short of the grades they originally asked for, they would work with students to get them to the required standard. How they would do that if their A levels were unrelated, I dont know, but presume they mean the required standard of coursework.

@Orchidsindoors

"It was fine if it was part of your standard practice but not if you suddenly decided to convert all your offers to unconditional because of COVID.

Lots of universities offer blanket unconditional offers in normal times."

All the ones I know of had conditional offers which immediately turned into unconditional offers in the days after the announcement that A level exams were cancelled. So yes, because of covid.
They said in the letter that if their results fell short of the grades they originally asked for, they would work with students to get them to the required standard. How they would do that if their A levels were unrelated, I dont know, but presume they mean the required standard of coursework.

Lots of universities made blanket offers due to COVID so the OfS got involved. Universities were worried that acceptances would decline and deferrals increase but that didn't really happen.

my private school a lot of children go to state schools for 6th form as they know there will be leniency in grades when applying to Oxbridge etc. After doing their A levels at state comprehensives student who were once average students in the private selective sector are now top of the class in the state system. Universities see that they come from 'poorer areas' and give them lower grade targets accordingly.*

Sorry, but this is just nonsense.

I went to a state comprehensive with a large selective sixth form. Some of those who joined us came from private schools but certainly not all. The privately educated did not float to the top - some did well and some not so well. The offer for Cambridge was the standard A*, A, A.
The schools where the offers are lower than the standard are the schools that very very few privately educated ever venture in to, never mind attend.

Bold fail.

@Orchidsindoors

"It was fine if it was part of your standard practice but not if you suddenly decided to convert all your offers to unconditional because of COVID.

Lots of universities offer blanket unconditional offers in normal times."

All the ones I know of had conditional offers which immediately turned into unconditional offers in the days after the announcement that A level exams were cancelled. So yes, because of covid.
They said in the letter that if their results fell short of the grades they originally asked for, they would work with students to get them to the required standard. How they would do that if their A levels were unrelated, I dont know, but presume they mean the required standard of coursework.

And within 4 days the OfS introduced regulation to ban the practice for fear that the RG would suddenly find it had no students..... so the quick movers got away with it. those of us that thought about it were too late!

It isn't affecting my family directly but I am reading about a lot of distress in our local media, across comprehensive and selective schools. The heads are effectively speaking with one voice on this. However, since overall grades have gone up slightly, even in in state schools on average, it is great that it has worked out for some pupils.

The heads are not speaking with one voice. Simply you are hearing the media choice of what they want to portray, from a vocal group. That is why you are hearing it.

Around 5 years ago I had a friend upset. Her dd was expecting AAA.
She achieved CDE when the results came through. This means she had to totally change her thoughts for the future.
It wasn't just her; it was the whole class, they were all down that amount, and the same was true in other subjects too.
The school press release: "So proud of our students for all they've achieved, celebrating another wonderful set of results."
This year they're being very vocal that they're the worst results they've ever had and some of their pupils have been given one grade lower in every subject. It is not their worst year ever by a long factor...

Normally you get the success stories. And the people who missed go off quietly to lick their wounds.
This time you've got people complaining, but people who achieved what they expected or better are keeping quiet for fear of being told they're smug or rubbing it in others' faces.

I know a lot of children this age: It's between my oldest and middle, so I know a lot of parents and between my dc they' have a lot of friends that age. Every single one has got into their first choice uni. They're all state school btw. Some of them have dropped a grade or two (as in 2 subjects), some have gone up a grade or two. Roughly similar in numbers the last year and the year before.

This system wasn't perfect. No one is saying this. I suspect dd2 (GCSEs) will be unduly hit by the algorithm-she normally does way better in exams than expecting, and is in a very large school, which is what seems to have been hit worst.

But the media was clearly going for "exam fiasco" story, and that's what sells. There are people out their loudly protesting.
But how many people aren't protesting. How many people are saying they think it's "fair enough"? That's not a news story so you can't tell.

The government needs to step back and let Ofqual look into it themselves. Rushing out popularist responses on the spurt of the moment is not going to be help.

And lastly: I had to chuckle at this headline I read combined with the picture:
Headline: "Boris urged to take charge in A-level chaos"
Picture: Student with placard saying "Trust teachers not Tories"

Yes I agree, the schools and colleges always put a good spin on it. Our school announced they had a 97.7 pass rate. I guess everything above a U is a pass, because I know lots of them who got D's and E's, and to me they are fails.

they were most shocked when she turned it down in favour of a conditional offer elsewhere

How did you find that out?

@cardibach

It is not narrow minded to believe that some state schools are failing their brightest pupils, and that it is not the job of university admissions to try to second guess what pupils might have attained if they had been well schooled. The issues of poor discipline, class sizes, lack of ambition and quality of teaching needs to be addressed - so that all DC have access to a good education.

You fall back on the students whose ability to learn is negatively impacted by their home life. I accept that this is the case for some students and this is out with the school’s control. But what about the majority of state school students for whom you can’t roll out this excuse?

[quote Bagatelle1]@cardibach

It is not narrow minded to believe that some state schools are failing their brightest pupils, and that it is not the job of university admissions to try to second guess what pupils might have attained if they had been well schooled. The issues of poor discipline, class sizes, lack of ambition and quality of teaching needs to be addressed - so that all DC have access to a good education.

You fall back on the students whose ability to learn is negatively impacted by their home life. I accept that this is the case for some students and this is out with the school’s control. But what about the majority of state school students for whom you can’t roll out this excuse?[/quote]
Some. Of course. As some independents do (I’ve seen it). I’m not ‘falling back’ on deprivation, it’s an actual reason. The behaviour is often a large class size issue - again, I worked in an independent which took some pupils excluded from state for behavioural reasons and in small classes they were more manageable. As for quality of teaching - independent school teachers aren’t different from state ones. They’re pretty much all trained ( at least in part) by the state, and teachers move backwards and forwards between sectors as I have.
The system is failing a large number of its pupils, not just schools and not most individual schools. That’s the structural issue I was referring to. Universities do need to loo for potential sometimes while the system works against so many bright and committed kids.

@Orchidsindoors

"Although pupils from private schools often fare well in gaining places at University, it is fairly well recognised that pupils from state schools often have more potential and ahem actual ability once they are there."

I dont see how this can be true? Have you just made this up as you have a bias against privately educated children?

So I discussed this with DH and he also was under the impression that state school kids tended to get more firsts etc. Fair point though to check it out more rigorously!

Guardian article

supporting article

older Guardian article

I bet I could find more if I looked for another 5 minutes.

@HopeClearwater

they were most shocked when she turned it down in favour of a conditional offer elsewhere

How did you find that out?

Because it was at an offer holders day which she went to to help make a decision, she decided on the other one and told them there and then.

Because it was at an offer holders day which she went to to help make a decision, she decided on the other one and told them there and then.

I think the surprise would be because she told them there and then. They aren't generally the place where they make up their minds and tell them. The students go to the ones they're interested in, come home having been to them all and make a choice and just fill it out on Ucas.

@Witchend

Because it was at an offer holders day which she went to to help make a decision, she decided on the other one and told them there and then.

I think the surprise would be because she told them there and then. They aren't generally the place where they make up their minds and tell them. The students go to the ones they're interested in, come home having been to them all and make a choice and just fill it out on Ucas.

She was asked if she looking forward to coming, presumably they expected she was accepting an unconditional offer so she told them she wasn't going to as she'd decided.

Well, this looks like a very good response from oxford University!

@DelurkingAJ

My DDad used to be involved in Oxbridge admissions. Late 90s his college didn’t have an APPLICANT from a non selective state school who didn’t have a parent in education. University is FAR too late to sort this problem.

I’d also like to know what % of A and A* grades are attained by independent and grammar school pupils...

I just found this graph - and thought of you . It is coming up very small though, sorry. it is from here

I'd just like to confirm that there are a lot of myths about contextual offers, they vary from uni to uni for a start. I looked a few of the Scottish ones up when I had an argument with a private school parent friend. You have to qualify in several categories usually, neither parent having been to uni is a popular one, add to that living in a deprived area and going to a school with low rates of uni applications, very difficult to game that system.

So I discussed this with DH and he also was under the impression that state school kids tended to get more firsts etc. Fair point though to check it out more rigorously!

But you didn't check it out rigorously - you quote media articles, instead of the original articles. The articles in the media have their own agenda.

It is far more nuanced than the phrase you wrote: for one thing, not all state schools are equal, and there is quite some variation in resources of private schools. From the actual articles, there is little statistical difference in performance between kids from private day schools and kids from high performing state schools. There is little statistical difference at the very top universities e.g. Oxbridge.

On the other hand, going back up to what you wrote earlier about making more contextual offers, there is considerable evidence demonstrating that students with grades several below the average for the intake of the course do not succeed.

I would reiterate a PP who pointed out that these issues have been under consideration and action by universities for years. If it was an simple as Oxbridge simply accepting BBB from low performing state schools, with these kids doing just as well as the A star AA + students from private or higher performing state schools, they (we) would have done it years ago.

@herecomesthsun

Well, this looks like a very good response from oxford University!

It's far easier for Oxford to do this than other universities though. Offers are made made on the test applicants are required to complete and interviews so they already know who they will be taking before A level results. They won't over offer to the same extent that other universities do.

Worcester college made the decision to take all offer holders as soon as they found out A levels were cancelled.

Universities like oxford are not representative of the whole sector so we can really make comparisons.

Universities can be put into two categories- selecting and recruiting. There are universities that are oversubscribed and therefore are in a position to select students and be more strict with entry requirements as they know they'll fill their courses. Recruiting universities are probably being a little more flexible.