More equitable access to good unis for state school applicants

[herecomesthsun]

So I was horrified at the A levels fiasco. The system seems to have been particularly biased against applicants from state schools and deprived areas and weighted in favour of applicants from private schools, especially smaller ones.

Looking at this mess, it is very hard to see how this can be sorted out before the start of the next academic year. But I would really like to discuss here whether it is possible to help the situation in the medium term.

Thankfully, my own children are far from exam years, but I well remember how I felt as an 18 year old, the first person to go to University from my side of the family. I would have been devastated to have been awarded low grades, not through my own merits, or lack of them, but because of a bumbling, incompetent grading system.

It seems to me that Universities have the power to right some of these wrongs, but they are limited in what they can do for the new starters of 2020.

Although pupils from private schools often fare well in gaining places at University, it is fairly well recognised that pupils from state schools often have more potential and ahem actual ability once they are there. Universities have been trying to recruit more state school candidates and this is not just social justice but has large potential advantages in drawing in better candidates.

Worcester College, Oxford, however, have been a shining example in offering 83% of its 2020 places to state school applicants and in honouring the offer, irrespective of the Mickey Mouse grades allocated in August.

This would be an unusually high percentage of state school pupils accepted in an Oxbridge college, even though only about 6-7% of UK pupils go to a private school see here

The proportion of state students at a third of Russell group universities actually
fell in 2019, before covid. (It might be sensible to exclude specialist art/music etc.colleges for the purposes of this discussion.)

I am wondering whether, in light of the continued disruption to the education system, there would be an advantage in formalising a more proportionate offer- for example that a University would need to offer a minimum percentage of its UK entrant places to state school applicants for 2021. This could perhaps start at a proportion closer to the current status quo (which can be 50:50 for Oxbridge) but increase over time. Although it would be great to go for a good ball park figure of 80% or more state school out of UK applicants, for Russell Group.

I would argue that this is more than fair to private schools, as only 7% of students attend those, (and there are more options open for this group,for example increasing numbers attend overseas universities.)

This would give some potential extra wiggle room for some very good state students disappointed this year to re-apply in future.

And, if there was some provision for these places to be set aside for state students, then if A levels are affected by covid issues again next year in some way, there would be some protection and reassurance for UK state students. This might offer a greater feeling of hope to next year's students.

There is no perfect answer in the current situation, but I think this approach would be a statement of good faith and support for our best state school students in the current climate of uncertainty.

AIBU - leave university entrance as it is

AINBU - vote for a system with some protection of access to university places for the brightest state students

I don't wprk for Oxford bit....
So extrapolating from my own distant experience and not any current knowledge; regarding space, online lectures could be accessed in college rooms - students would need the tech.
All universities are doing a mix of in person, on campus learning and online. So teaching is space is an issue for all subjects. teaching spaces have to have social distancing measure in place so rooms can hold a fraction of students. This means academics have having to deliver the same sessions multiple times as well as all the online/remote stuff.

Oxbridge tutorials are time consuming for the teachers, but they are crucial to the sort of learning (at least they were when I was there).Are they happening on zoom?*

Tutorials happen at all universities and are very time consuming. All mine since lockdown have been via Zoom.

Science practicals and medicine would be a real problem.

Yep - same as other teaching. Reduced class sizes and staff delivering multiple sessions.

Can they get books out from the Bod online? I assume libraries are also an issue.
Our library is now open to staff and students but lots of our resources are available online.

These days students have lots of counselling available, I imagine they will need quite a bit of that after all this palaver. Poor kids.
Not just kids.....I teach mainly mature students and pastoral issues have increase exponentially.
These services have continued throughout lockdown but moved online. Many universities are keeping them online.The same applies for careers services which are even more important in the current climate.

Apologies for all the typos....my brain is frazzled from marking!

Malborough, some one said Worcester accepted %of state students.

Just think, everyone else will know, Worcestershire is the state student ghetto and be snobby about it.

Eg, imagine most other colleges, eton, Malborough, Harrow etc... It will become a.. Which college at Oxford were you at... Snobbery.

More division.

Great that they lavish the dc there though.

As a working class kid who was also the first on my side of the family to dare to broach the hallowed halls of (what later became) a Russell Group university, and never even dared think about Oxbridge (even though the grades I got would have been good enough, back in the day when a far lower percentage of the population studied a degree), I do think those with a private education behind them, including many of the admissions tutors, don't realise how daunting academia is if you're not from that background. That's quite apart from the fear of never being able to pay back those excessive loans (I JUST got through on a full student grant due to my dad being the only one working and not earning very highly, otherwise I'd never even have been able to consider attempting to get a degree).

I'd love to see more options and encouragement from those from a state background; Queen's in Northern Ireland is one of the Russell Group universities that does actually have a relatively good proportion of students from "ordinary" backgrounds, though that does say something about the education system in Northern Ireland too. My Scottish cousins also went to a good variety of universities, or into well-paid trades and worked their way up, and again, it reflects the education system north of the English border too. I do think we're way too wound up in the importance of degrees to the exclusion of other qualifications in this country.

There are some universities now that do offer bursaries and other incentives for working class/underprivileged kids, but unless you have savvy teachers and/or parents/relatives to help you uncover these, how the heck are you supposed to find out? And thanks to the increasing likelihood of a no deal Brexit, some of the cheaper options in Europe will soon be gone too (several degrees at Scandi universities are either very low cost or free to EU/EEA/Swiss students; some were even offered on a distance learning basis long before COVID, but it'll be goodbye to all those options at the end of the year).

Ie, devalues it.

You went to the state school college, the one that was easier to get into.
Not the real Oxford

. Type of thing.

Op the articles about state getting 1sts.

The first one said the stats were skewed and independent have more attainment or something BUT was that average comps or... Were grammar schools in that too.

Because we have cut throat high selection grammars round us who get healthy no into red bricks etc.
I can't believe the figures don't include grammars.

Being a guardian article, famous for leaving out pertinent parts though I couldn't see clearly if grammar was included.?

Grammars can be state or indie,usually state.

@Swelteringmeltering

Oh right. So in Oxford I think Harris Manchester and Mansfield College do have a lot of state applicants. Of the older colleges, Ruskin has a remit for mature students who have done other things like be a social worker. Even Magdalen which has its own deer park and a famous choir involved in ancient traditions etc is 50:50.

Worcester is a very respectable old college and definitely not looked down upon. All the colleges belong to the University and, while you tend to make friends within your own college, you could perfectly well hang out with other people from different colleges and having a wider social circle was a positive, there wasn't such a thing as a particular "wrong" college.

In 2019, over 62% students were from state school, quite a mixture throughout the colleges - and not a ghetto. This is not yet representative of society (between 7-14% of indie students getting nearly 40% of places) , and you'd not be admitted to the Bullingdon Club as a female no U person, but then that does not appeal to everyone .

Being from a non-traditional background etc. was quite respected in fact (especially if many of your friends were Marxists).

Here comes, thanks. That sounds much more appealing!

Until the Marxist comments at the end.

And up goes the admissions cap. Good luck University staff and students.

@herecomesthsun

And up goes the admissions cap. Good luck University staff and students.

That's mine and my husband's uni's completely screwed 😭

I'm really sorry it is creating all these problems Sue.

And apparently this is how other European countries handled their equivalent of A levels.

And ours But hey, the RG will be fine.

@titchy

And ours But hey, the RG will be fine.

Of course. Which is all this government really cares about anyway.

Our numbers were looking really positive too.

@herecomesthsun

I'm really sorry it is creating all these problems Sue.

And apparently this is how other European countries handled their equivalent of A levels.

I teach HE policy so have kept up to date with what is happening internationally.

It's very difficult to make direct comparisons for a number of reasons.

Sorry that link was intended for those of us who didn't know the information already.

Ah okay.

No worries