More equitable access to good unis for state school applicants

[herecomesthsun]

So I was horrified at the A levels fiasco. The system seems to have been particularly biased against applicants from state schools and deprived areas and weighted in favour of applicants from private schools, especially smaller ones.

Looking at this mess, it is very hard to see how this can be sorted out before the start of the next academic year. But I would really like to discuss here whether it is possible to help the situation in the medium term.

Thankfully, my own children are far from exam years, but I well remember how I felt as an 18 year old, the first person to go to University from my side of the family. I would have been devastated to have been awarded low grades, not through my own merits, or lack of them, but because of a bumbling, incompetent grading system.

It seems to me that Universities have the power to right some of these wrongs, but they are limited in what they can do for the new starters of 2020.

Although pupils from private schools often fare well in gaining places at University, it is fairly well recognised that pupils from state schools often have more potential and ahem actual ability once they are there. Universities have been trying to recruit more state school candidates and this is not just social justice but has large potential advantages in drawing in better candidates.

Worcester College, Oxford, however, have been a shining example in offering 83% of its 2020 places to state school applicants and in honouring the offer, irrespective of the Mickey Mouse grades allocated in August.

This would be an unusually high percentage of state school pupils accepted in an Oxbridge college, even though only about 6-7% of UK pupils go to a private school see here

The proportion of state students at a third of Russell group universities actually
fell in 2019, before covid. (It might be sensible to exclude specialist art/music etc.colleges for the purposes of this discussion.)

I am wondering whether, in light of the continued disruption to the education system, there would be an advantage in formalising a more proportionate offer- for example that a University would need to offer a minimum percentage of its UK entrant places to state school applicants for 2021. This could perhaps start at a proportion closer to the current status quo (which can be 50:50 for Oxbridge) but increase over time. Although it would be great to go for a good ball park figure of 80% or more state school out of UK applicants, for Russell Group.

I would argue that this is more than fair to private schools, as only 7% of students attend those, (and there are more options open for this group,for example increasing numbers attend overseas universities.)

This would give some potential extra wiggle room for some very good state students disappointed this year to re-apply in future.

And, if there was some provision for these places to be set aside for state students, then if A levels are affected by covid issues again next year in some way, there would be some protection and reassurance for UK state students. This might offer a greater feeling of hope to next year's students.

There is no perfect answer in the current situation, but I think this approach would be a statement of good faith and support for our best state school students in the current climate of uncertainty.

AIBU - leave university entrance as it is

AINBU - vote for a system with some protection of access to university places for the brightest state students

I would reiterate a PP who pointed out that these issues have been under consideration and action by universities for years. If it was an simple as Oxbridge simply accepting BBB from low performing state schools, with these kids doing just as well as the A star AA + students from private or higher performing state schools, they (we) would have done it years ago.

Also, some of the groups that benefit from contextual offers don't actually like or want them!

Im a couple of years out if date but my research inducated that contextual offers usually still had to meet the minimum offer for a course often only a few tariff points below the average offer, in a Scottish context that would be something like 3As, 1B instead of 4As.
I do know students who have negotiated individual contextual offers due to exceotional personal circs though, even private school pupils.

@herecomesthsun That chart shows that 46% of grades achieved by Independent schools were A and A. Do you know if there is a similar chart which shows what percentage of all A and A grades were achieved by independent and other categories of schools? That would be interesting!

It is a very difficult issue and said above different universities have different contextual schemes -eg my sons just finished at Bristol (and had gone to a private school - although one where one son's best subject in his university subject was B - the best in the year in the school for that subject and he won the school prize in it - no one will ever contextualise that B grade to the A* perhaps it should have been had he had better teaching of course as he went to a private school but probably they should!). Bristol's scheme takes pupils at the 40% worst schools for A level grades which is almost half of all schools - a vast number and has other factors too and you can get in with grades 2 lower than the norm. Luckily my son with the B had an offer which was not contextualised of AAB for his less popular subject so he met his offer and got in 3 years ago)

Private vary - around here there are about six in a pecking order from where the brightest of the bright go and compete with some of the best state grammars in England in some cases and then down to private schools for those very intellectually challenged.

Here is a very eloquent article Method used to assign A-level grades favoured public schools by Paul Johnson, director of the Institute for Fiscal Studies.

He suggests that the manner of dealing with different class sizes clearly was going to favour private schools, this should absolutely have been foreseen and addressed in advance and that there is a lack of common sense in converting the lowest class grades to a U. Historic improvement in attainment also wasn't taken into account from GCSE to A level Overall,this has led to, anecdotally, the "poshest cohorts ever".

Luckily my son with the B had an offer which was not contextualised of AAB for his less popular subject so he met his offer and got in 3 years ago)

Whereas my state educated eldest DD had a contextual offer of AAB from Bristol and got A*AA (same as the standard offer) so didn't need it and got it 3 years ago.

Therh, depends on the subject what the grades usually are but the interesting point was his B being the highest grade in the school and your son instead got higher grades - my point being some private schools get lower grades than some state schools. I have not studied the A level rules this year other than to note they are very unfair fair but some private schools have huge classes in the bigger more successful schools and others have tiny classes so quite hard to generalise.

@Xenia

Therh, depends on the subject what the grades usually are but the interesting point was his B being the highest grade in the school and your son instead got higher grades - my point being some private schools get lower grades than some state schools. I have not studied the A level rules this year other than to note they are very unfair fair but some private schools have huge classes in the bigger more successful schools and others have tiny classes so quite hard to generalise.

Some parents seem to be of the view that private school automatically means all 9s/A*/A grades, of course that's never going to be the case.

Ok so according to twitter all England GCSE and A grades will be by teacher assessment. If this is true, will there not now be a different sort of chaos in Universities?

@herecomesthsun

Ok so according to twitter all England GCSE and A grades will be by teacher assessment. If this is true, will there not now be a different sort of chaos in Universities?

Utter chaos. A cluster fuck. Omnishambles (why doesn't autocorrect recognise that word...). Clearing has started. Offers have been made. Student number control would have to be cancelled. Most of us would not be able to honour all those offers now. Some certainly. All, no. So some will have to defer.

On the plus side with a dearth of EU applicants for next year we'll need those extras. And also mit

Oops!

Mitigates against next years applicants finding themselves in an unexpectedly competitive environment due to record deferrals.

[quote ChateauMargaux]**@herecomesthsun* That chart shows that 46% of grades achieved by Independent schools were A and A. Do you know if there is a similar chart which shows what percentage of all A and A* grades were achieved by independent and other categories of schools? That would be interesting![/quote]
Obviously not all independent schools are academically selective, but those figures would be very low for many selective independent schools. For the last three years (2016-2019) at least 80% of A level entries at my children's old school received at least an A grade. Over 40% of entries received A*s.

Interestingly they haven't yet published this year's figures, which I assume means that they are unhappy with them.

Poor kids and poor university staff and teachers. I am also wondering about how things can be managed fairly for the cohort of 2021, especially if there are a lot of people deferring. If there are spare places from international students who can't now come,that might help a bit with numbers, although the numbers are unlikely to tally neatly. But then, won't the universities take a large financial hit, without international fees?

Is it possible to look at how other countries have managed transition to higher education during this time of disruption to get ideas for what might work next year? (I'm afraid I don't have any knowledge of what they are doing, but it might be interesting to compare)

That's what I dont get. So say a Uni rejected someone based on their grades and have offered to someone else based on their inflated grades. Will they now have to reject the person who got in, to give their place to the person who originally had the offer, or are they still rejected?

@titchy crossposted

I've not read the thread but I strongly dislike the idea of only one Oxford college accepting state students. Sounds like ghetto to me.

If there are spare places from international students who can't now come,that might help a bit with numbers, although the numbers are unlikely to tally neatly. But then, won't the universities take a large financial hit, without international fees?

Currently universities are subject to student number controls - we can't recruit more than 5% of our projected numbers ( decided pre-COVID). The financial penalties for over recruiting are HUGE. International students aren't included in SNC. The controls were implemented to prevent popular universities ( who tend to rely heavily on international students) cannibalising students from the less popular universities.

@Swelteringmeltering
They all accept state students.It is a bit animal farm though, some accept an awful lot more than others.

As far as ghettos are concerned, some of the colleges most accepting to state school candidates are very lavish in their care for undergraduates - a ghetto I would warmly recommend.

Oh and yeah uni's are in financial dire straits. There have already been mass redundancies, mainly voluntary at the moment but that will change. Those that rely on international students are in real trouble.

@SueEllenMishke Could the government change the rules, to help clear up the[ir] mess over A levels? Would you want them to?

@Swelteringmeltering where has that suggestion come from?!

Could the government change the rules, to help clear up the[ir] mess over A levels? Would you want them to?

They could but they haven't wanted to help the HE sector at all during the last few months. The SNC were introduced specifically for this year after being abolished a number of years ago.

The problem lots of universities have is space and staff - specifically lack of. We just cant take endless numbers of students as we have nowhere to put them ( a situation made worse as we have to make sure teaching space is COVID secure so capacity is massively reduced) and we don't have the staff to teach them! Most universities are making staff redundant and have recruitment freezes.

I've copied this elsewhere, just for interest, but there are also some schools at the "bottom" end, who have perversely benefitted hugely from the algorithm, just showing how ridiculous the whole thing is. This is a school rated inadequate in Jan, never had and A's a ALevel:

www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/18649441.oxford-academy-sees-improvement-a-level-results/

Summary: Results showed eight per cent of grades were A, up from zero per cent last year, while 24 per cent of grades were A or A, again up from zero per cent.

fifthtimelucky I noticed that too locally, I think we are in the same locality..... I understand heads and relevant associations are getting together to do joint appeals based on past performance. Our head is appealing every subject which had large cohorts.

So extrapolating from my own distant experience and not any current knowledge; regarding space, online lectures could be accessed in college rooms - students would need the tech.

Oxbridge tutorials are time consuming for the teachers, but they are crucial to the sort of learning (at least they were when I was there). Are they happening on zoom?

Science practicals and medicine would be a real problem.

And the whole experience of meeting together for meals and social activities, the hall, the bar (for some) the chapel (for probably only a few now anyway) the theatre, the music - that's not fully possible anyhow.

Can they get books out from the Bod online? I assume libraries are also an issue.

These days students have lots of counselling available, I imagine they will need quite a bit of that after all this palaver. Poor kids.

@Orchidsindoors

That's what I dont get. So say a Uni rejected someone based on their grades and have offered to someone else based on their inflated grades. Will they now have to reject the person who got in, to give their place to the person who originally had the offer, or are they still rejected?

Can't reject once an offer is made. If a previously rejected applicant turns out to have got the grades but no places left, they will presumably be offered a deferred place next year.

If on the other hand a previously rejected applicant has gone elsewhere, their first choice now takes them, their insurance or clearing uni loses a student. So how the fuck do we plan our numbers now?