More equitable access to good unis for state school applicants

[herecomesthsun]

So I was horrified at the A levels fiasco. The system seems to have been particularly biased against applicants from state schools and deprived areas and weighted in favour of applicants from private schools, especially smaller ones.

Looking at this mess, it is very hard to see how this can be sorted out before the start of the next academic year. But I would really like to discuss here whether it is possible to help the situation in the medium term.

Thankfully, my own children are far from exam years, but I well remember how I felt as an 18 year old, the first person to go to University from my side of the family. I would have been devastated to have been awarded low grades, not through my own merits, or lack of them, but because of a bumbling, incompetent grading system.

It seems to me that Universities have the power to right some of these wrongs, but they are limited in what they can do for the new starters of 2020.

Although pupils from private schools often fare well in gaining places at University, it is fairly well recognised that pupils from state schools often have more potential and ahem actual ability once they are there. Universities have been trying to recruit more state school candidates and this is not just social justice but has large potential advantages in drawing in better candidates.

Worcester College, Oxford, however, have been a shining example in offering 83% of its 2020 places to state school applicants and in honouring the offer, irrespective of the Mickey Mouse grades allocated in August.

This would be an unusually high percentage of state school pupils accepted in an Oxbridge college, even though only about 6-7% of UK pupils go to a private school see here

The proportion of state students at a third of Russell group universities actually
fell in 2019, before covid. (It might be sensible to exclude specialist art/music etc.colleges for the purposes of this discussion.)

I am wondering whether, in light of the continued disruption to the education system, there would be an advantage in formalising a more proportionate offer- for example that a University would need to offer a minimum percentage of its UK entrant places to state school applicants for 2021. This could perhaps start at a proportion closer to the current status quo (which can be 50:50 for Oxbridge) but increase over time. Although it would be great to go for a good ball park figure of 80% or more state school out of UK applicants, for Russell Group.

I would argue that this is more than fair to private schools, as only 7% of students attend those, (and there are more options open for this group,for example increasing numbers attend overseas universities.)

This would give some potential extra wiggle room for some very good state students disappointed this year to re-apply in future.

And, if there was some provision for these places to be set aside for state students, then if A levels are affected by covid issues again next year in some way, there would be some protection and reassurance for UK state students. This might offer a greater feeling of hope to next year's students.

There is no perfect answer in the current situation, but I think this approach would be a statement of good faith and support for our best state school students in the current climate of uncertainty.

AIBU - leave university entrance as it is

AINBU - vote for a system with some protection of access to university places for the brightest state students

Nope. I am suggesting we perpetuate an unfair system in which private schools get more than their fair share of places at good universities.

I am merely suggesting that we could try putting some measures in place, to a small degree, to make the process slightly less unfair.

You're taking like you're the first person to realise this. People are actually employed by universities to address this issue - but inequality starts way before universities are involved. 15 years ago I worked on a project which worked with primary schools in deprived areas and focussed on raising aspirations and attainment and specifically focused on higher education. The coalition government removed that funding over night. My university continued to fund it for a few years until they simply couldn't afford it anymore.

@Normalmumandwife Unfortunately you're wrong- there has been hardly any marking down in the private schools, as opposed to 35-40% in public schools.
Private schools benefited
"Independent schools saw top grades jump 4.7%" - source:

news.sky.com/story/35-of-a-level-results-downgraded-by-one-grade-figures-reveal-12048251

The education secretary admitted as much here
"As students began to receive their results, Mr Williamson conceded that bright pupils in schools which did not traditionally achieve high marks risked losing out."
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/a-level-results-day-ucas-exams-clearing-gavin-williamson-a9668026.html

@SueEllenMishke

Right, so I would agree the Universities can take all the students who have been affected this year.

I am not by the way claiming detailed insider knowledge of the current University admissions procedures.

But might it be possible to consider having more contextual offers for next year maybe? Targeted at state students? Especially ones from the "deprived" cohort who have been relatively disadvantaged (by Ofqual, not by the universities) this year?

It might not be exactly the answer for the individual students who have had difficulties this month (though some might accept a deferred place. But it could help overall maybe.

I

Yes but the problem is that 'state schools' are not one homogeneous group = London Oratory or other schools rich counties that draw from such a small and wealthy catchment probably have a higher parental net worth than lots of mediocre independents.

Even children from counties that have grammars have had a very different education than one which doesn't. My comprehensive school didn't do any sort of streaming outside of eng/maths/science....can you imagine how hard it is to get good results where at least half of your class just don't want to be there and are still having to have basic grammar (e.g. what is a noun) explained in year 11?

And then there are, like other posters have said, issues with scholarships, bursaries etc. Should someone from a poor background who has managed to get into a good private school due to their intelligence and hard work (and usually some element of luck) be penalised when it comes to their university admissions?

I though Oxbridge colleges specifically looked at type of school (e.g. good grammar, low attaining comp, etc.) when considering candidates, which to me makes a lot more sense than just a basic state/private binary.

But might it be possible to consider having more contextual offers for next year maybe? Targeted at state students? Especially ones from the "deprived" cohort who have been relatively disadvantaged (by Ofqual, not by the universities) this year?

How many times .....they do this already!!!!
The problem is certain students do not apply to elite universities

@SueEllenMishke

You're talking like you're the first person to realise this

No, I'm trying to have a debate on a public discussion board, and I'm trying to put forward this side of the argument. I'm not trying to attack Universities at all, and I realise this isn't my specialist area of knowledge.

Ah yes, it's AIBU, sorry. But I am appreciating the discussion.

[quote herecomesthsun]@SueEllenMishke

You're talking like you're the first person to realise this

No, I'm trying to have a debate on a public discussion board, and I'm trying to put forward this side of the argument. I'm not trying to attack Universities at all, and I realise this isn't my specialist area of knowledge.

Ah yes, it's AIBU, sorry. But I am appreciating the discussion.[/quote]
But you're dismissing comments from people working in the sector who do have more knowledge that you.

Ok so universities can give contextual offers. I sort of knew this, because I had one more than 40 years ago. But I am wondering whether there is leeway to give more, and what is the brake stopping this?

Do universities feel they have reached their limit with this, or is it because the government stopped this as was suggested before, or is it a mixture of the 2?

@SueEllenMishke

Also the argument seems to be that lots of people have looked into this and feel there's not much to be done, so there is no point in discussing it, and even suggesting we talk about it is somehow disrespectful to the Universities.

I think Universities are wonderful! but I would like to at least have a conversation about ideas about how the current dispiriting situation (not brought about at all by the Unis) could be addressed. Not wanting to be disrespectful , more sort of interested, exactly because of how important and formative my University experience was for me.

@herecomesthsun

Ok so universities can give contextual offers. I sort of knew this, because I had one more than 40 years ago. But I am wondering whether there is leeway to give more, and what is the brake stopping this?

Do universities feel they have reached their limit with this, or is it because the government stopped this as was suggested before, or is it a mixture of the 2?

There are no limits but they often have strict criteria attached ( postcode, POLAR quintile, parents education etc) which is decided by individual universities. You can't apply a blanket policy because all universities are different. One group of students might be underrepresented at one university but not another.

However, if a university wants to charge full fees they have to outline in their access agreement what they are doing to widen access at their specific institution - this is data driven and individual to each university.

[quote herecomesthsun]@SueEllenMishke

Also the argument seems to be that lots of people have looked into this and feel there's not much to be done, so there is no point in discussing it, and even suggesting we talk about it is somehow disrespectful to the Universities.

I think Universities are wonderful! but I would like to at least have a conversation about ideas about how the current dispiriting situation (not brought about at all by the Unis) could be addressed. Not wanting to be disrespectful , more sort of interested, exactly because of how important and formative my University experience was for me.[/quote]
Who says we aren't doing anything?
My entire career has been focussed on addressing this issue. There are entire teams employed by universities to widen access.

It's complex and multifaceted but it has improved ... but there is still work to be done.

I'm not a big lover of private education but the posters who are saying that independent schools have been affected too are right.

It's the smaller private schools with cohorts of less than 15 that have benefited because where the cohort was less than 15 the CAG was used. In big independent schools and in subjects with more than 15 students in a subject the algorithm has been used and serms to have caused just as much havoc as in the state sector.

The problem with state applications is one that the universities constantly address. I can't speak for Oxford but I know that Cambridge has a scheme to encourage applications from schools which do not normally apply. They are fighting against preconceptions caused by the media, and to an extent, by threads like this.

@herecomesthsun

There are certainly quite a few kids from state schools in the media offered places at Oxbridge/ med school who came a cropper with the A level results, so it wouldn't have been too late for them to have a fairer system.

Back in the day, I got a conditional offer of 2 Es for Oxbridge, having effectively taught myself the entrance exam. My husband got an offer of 3 Es for Keele .

If universities are able to identify really good students, they can circumnavigate A level glitches to a large extent with low offers.

But back in the day, that was the standard Oxbridge offer, if you were accepted on the entrance exam, you had a 2 e offer. They weren’t making an exception for you. The point is that they made the offers based on their own exams. not sure if returning to that would be helpful or not, I think maybe there was a larger proportion of natural flair being involved in one of the papers.

The 7% of pupils educated privately versus 14 or 20% in sixth form is not due to more students in private education rather that there are fewer students in full time education overall.

Universities can offer whatever they like - entry requirements are a way of positioning themselves in the market and attracting students of a particular calibre they aren't set in stone.
However, as soon as a university starts making low offers its vilified by the press who make a big deal about how universities are accepting people with no A Levels.

This is partly why we don't publish our clearing grades - nobody wants the publicity nightmare of being named as a university accepting people with low grades. Doesn't stop the journalists trying every year though!

@Tavannach

I'm not a big lover of private education but the posters who are saying that independent schools have been affected too are right.

It's the smaller private schools with cohorts of less than 15 that have benefited because where the cohort was less than 15 the CAG was used. In big independent schools and in subjects with more than 15 students in a subject the algorithm has been used and serms to have caused just as much havoc as in the state sector.

The problem with state applications is one that the universities constantly address. I can't speak for Oxford but I know that Cambridge has a scheme to encourage applications from schools which do not normally apply. They are fighting against preconceptions caused by the media, and to an extent, by threads like this.

But presumably, if we discuss the issue, we can clear up misconceptions? so would it not help overall to have the discussion?

It's interesting that there is pressure not to be seen as accepting low grades, which presumably complicates this.

I see the issue also with having a separate entrance exam, though apparently some sort of "tests" are still used for some subjects. I don't know how possible it is to continue with those at the moment, but presumably having some independent data does help in the current situation.

Maths and STEM subjects currently have some separate tests that are shared across a number of universities, I presume there are some well thought out arguments in favour of this as well as complications, especially at the moment,

Certainly have the discussion and challenge assumptions. The main reason there are fewer state students from poorer schools is because they don't apply.

Oxford and Cambridge are world class universities which need to keep their places in the world rankings. To do so they need the best students - they don't care where they come from.

At my - well-known and well-respected - state comprehensive one of my friends was told not to bother applying to Oxbridge because "YOU won't get in." She didn't apply and went to a RG university instead with her 4 stellar A-levels. But the teacher who assumed that Oxbridge wouldn't be interested in the daughter of a single parent living in a council house is the one who needs educating. And the teacher is harder to reach and her prejudices more ingrained.

But presumably, if we discuss the issue, we can clear up misconceptions? so would it not help overall to have the discussion?

But it doesn't help if people are sharing incorrect information, biased opinions and misconceptions.

MN is THE worst place for HE snobbery and misinformation with regards university.

@Bagatelle1

So you propose to make up for the failings of state schools by gerrymandering the university entrance requirement to prejudice private schools.

No suggestion that the route cause is failures within the state system. Far easier to exclude the competition than address poor schooling and effect real social change.

But will it aid social mobility? Won’t those grammas or top state schools from leafy suburbs where middle class parents have bought in-catchment houses simply become more exclusive as they send more and more DC to top universities. Whilst poor state schools continue to fail their brightest pupils. Yet liberals can pat themselves on the back at having achieved a ‘better’ state school ratio.

It’s a really bad take to describe this as ‘the failings of state schools’. How offensive and narrow minded. State schools have less money and fewer resources per child. They are often working with pupils who have barriers against them at ever turn - nowhere quite to work at home, no internet, no co outer, not enough food, not enough heat... I know not in every state school and not every pupil in them but that’s there. The reason they don’t do as well isn’t because the schools are bad or the pupils less intelligent, it’s structural inequality. For reference, I’ve been a teacher for over 30 years and worked in both the state and independent sector.

Every turn
Nowhere quiet
Maybe other stuff I haven’t noticed
I swear my iPad hates me.

Here's a (not very) radical solution. Stop the insistence that university is the only place for HE. Promote Degree Apprenticeships as a valued alternative, you even earn while you learn. Promote technical and trade skills again, put more money into skills that actually lead to jobs.

DD's indie is, interestingly, very hot on degree apprenticeships, we have had several talks on these, and over the last couple of years, a couple of very successful candidates into high skill engineering roles. They very much promote careers and access for girls into non traditional roles.

@Baaaahhhhh

Here's a (not very) radical solution. Stop the insistence that university is the only place for HE. Promote Degree Apprenticeships as a valued alternative, you even earn while you learn. Promote technical and trade skills again, put more money into skills that actually lead to jobs.

DD's indie is, interestingly, very hot on degree apprenticeships, we have had several talks on these, and over the last couple of years, a couple of very successful candidates into high skill engineering roles. They very much promote careers and access for girls into non traditional roles.

Degree apprenticeships are great in principle- a nightmare in practice.

They need to reduce the bureaucracy. There are no incentives for universities to offer them in great numbers. I've tried to set one up in my subject but it's just so difficult.

"Although pupils from private schools often fare well in gaining places at University, it is fairly well recognised that pupils from state schools often have more potential and ahem actual ability once they are there."

I dont see how this can be true? Have you just made this up as you have a bias against privately educated children?

A lot of the universities offered unconditional offers to students once the decision was made to cancel exams.

@Orchidsindoors

A lot of the universities offered unconditional offers to students once the decision was made to cancel exams.

Universities were told specifically not to do this by the OfS