To think anyone TTC now is mad?

[absolutelybloodyanonymous]

Given the GDP fall-economy disaster, rising unemployment, coronavirus, does it seem bloody mad to be TTC now?

I’ve got mates and family who are TTC or already upduffed and it seems absolutely mad to me. Why does RIGHT NOW feel like a good time to TTC? AIBU?

(Nc for this!)

@WarmthAndDepth

I’ve gone back to check what you posted and your exact words were ‘If I had known 10 years ago what is common knowledge now I would like to think I would have had the strength of character never to have started a family.’

Others have simply pointed out that climate change WAS ‘common knowledge’ 10 years ago, so you can’t pretend that it wasn’t and use that as your excuse. I won’t bash on about the horrible ‘strength of character’ comment because you have at least apologised for that bit.

I can also see from your posting history that you have two children, so it wasn’t even a decision you made once for the sake of satisfying your need / desire for a family. You actually did it all over again and had a second baby. But you can still be seen on multiple threads lecturing people about having another child and talking about the impact that decision will have on climate change. It seems that as long as people only have two children and were sensible enough to do it 10 years ago they’re fine, but anybody having more than two or having them later than you is feckless and irresponsible. How convenient for you that you completed your family before this great climate change deadline.

I’m planning for the baby I’m currently pregnant with to be my only one. Surely by the rules of your own lectures that makes me morally superior to you, even if I have been so mad and irresponsible as to have a baby during a pandemic and a climate crisis? Or am I still lacking strength of character because I didn’t have the good sense to have two babies a decade ago when the world was a blissful utopia with no sign of danger on the horizon?

What's it to you?

@ShebaShimmyShake

I haven't got enough space on my screen for the applauds TheMarshGirl deserves for all of her posts.

Ah thanks!

It seems that as long as people only have two children and were sensible enough to do it 10 years ago they’re fine, but anybody having more than two or having them later than you is feckless and irresponsible. How convenient for you that you completed your family before this great climate change deadline

Yes, exactly. And saying how much she regrets having children, she believes, gives her the leverage to direct other people not to have children.

It is so often post productive people, (those who have already had children as well as those who could not reasonably expect to have children now, due to their age or other circumstances), who are the most vocal about this IME.

As I said earlier, they seek to coerce younger, pften less privileged people out of their reproductive rights and they also think they get to claim they are heroes for doing so.

These would be these same people who would rightly be up in arms if an old man told a younger woman not to have an abortion which she wanted.

I could expand on this whole argument, but I've already said a lot on here and nobody needs another essay from me!

@WarmthAndDepth

I think OP is getting a hard time here. Yes, this is a parenting site, as a PP pointed out, but being a parent includes looking out for your future DC's best interests (as well as those of current DC, of course). For me, I feel the way OP does about the climate emergency, massively guilty about my DC's future in a heating world with rising oceans, collapsing weather systems, shrinking available landmass to an ever increasing global population, salination of fresh water and failing crops. If I had known 10 years ago what is common knowledge now I would like to think I would have had the strength of character never to have started a family. Chances are I will now have to witness my own DC having no choice but to remain 'childfree by choice' like Linsey (sp?) upthread, as by the time 2040 comes around, the last thing on people's kids' minds will be grade inflation. OP, I can see where you're coming from and I don't think you're goady, just seeing a larger, more objective picture.

Great post @WarmthAndDepth, I agree. And to the poster who said maybe your children will be scientists who find a way to stop climate change, unfortunately all evidence points to the fact that it is too late for that already and it definitely will be too late by the time your children get to that age.

Great post @WarmthAndDepth, I agree. And to the poster who said maybe your children will be scientists who find a way to stop climate change, unfortunately all evidence points to the fact that it is too late for that already and it definitely will be too late by the time your children get to that age.

I don't think anyone's choice to have children should hinge on them managing to give birth to the saviour of mankind and the planet.

The question for most perspective parents is, can my children enjoy a life worth living and can they be a positive addition to the planet if they so choose? For me, (and, unlike your pal warmthanddepth, I actually bothered to educate myself rather than "letting my yearning take over" blah blah), the answer to these questions is yes, as far as these things can be predicted.

There is not one mainstream organisation for the environment which backs the idea of total antinatalism. Population Matters is one of the biggest influencers when it comes to population and climate change. They are not antinatalists.

And this is not, imo, because antinatalism is "unpopular, but right". Quite the opposite. I have found that the proponents of antinatalism tend to have abandoned science entirely and base everything on the feels. I feel guilty and scared and the world is overpopulated and people are bad for the planet. This is very overly simplistic. Again, I have written a longer post on this up thread, so I won't repeat myself. But basically, it isn't a straight numbers game.

those saying about not having kids cos of climate change. Come on...life has always been uncertain. Throughout history we have had famine, droughts, wars, financial crisis and people have continued to have children.

Life has always been uncertain and life will continue to find a way to struggle through

It’s hard not to take this personally. I’m 38, DD is an only child. It’s pretty much now or never, Covid is not going away any time soon. I don’t want to lose my last chance for a second child.

@MotherWol please don't take one idiot on the internet's opinion personally. you do what is right for you. Who cares what other people think

It is personal, but that doesn't mean it's worthy of any note.

Thanks @Bells3032. We'd started TTC before lockdown, and this has really confirmed my feeling that I would love her to have a sibling. There's never going to be a good time, but pretty soon there won't be another time for me, so we'll just make the best of it.

People have babies in war zones, extreme poverty, in places with zero sanitation and hostile climate. I don't think Covid is scary enough to trump people's biological urges to reproduce. Most babies would probably survive catching it, so I don't see why people should wait. Zika virus would definitely give me pause tho.

A better title might have been : do you think that CV19 will cause a baby boom or baby bust? It's an interesting debate.

I'm accidentally pregnant right now. Didn't plan on having anymore kids at all never mind at the moment and I agree. I'm really worried about the next few years.

If I had really wanted a baby though, I don't think this would have put me off. I'm just finding it more stressful because it's been a shock.

@Bells3032

those saying about not having kids cos of climate change. Come on...life has always been uncertain. Throughout history we have had famine, droughts, wars, financial crisis and people have continued to have children.

Life has always been uncertain and life will continue to find a way to struggle through

I would also add that predictions of imminent apocalypse and antinatalism have existed since at least ancient times. Antinatalism isn't a logical reaction to climate change. It is a phenomenon of its own which has existed since long before industrialisation.

Again, not to be too dismissive of climate changes which is of course to be taken seriously, but just to counter the "I had my babies a few years ago, but NOW is the time nobody should have any more" comments. Or the "I'm in my mid 60s and never had children. Anyone who does is selfish" comments too.

These attitudes to those younger than us, or poorer than us, having babies, is not new and it is not specifically a reaction to climate change. There were antinatalists amongst the ancient Greeks. It is something, some humans have argued for for thousands of years.

Even worst case scenario predictions for climate change cannot possibly predict, at an individual level, how the life of somebody else's child will pan out. It is something the parents need to assess and make a decision on. That decision does not require the approval or input of people who are in the privileged position of having completed their families or are about to retire and, with due respect, probably die before any babies born today are in their 30s.

Young people are more clued up on climate change than older generations, including my own, ever were. There are also less likely to be pressured into having babies as a default option. They also have better access to contraception. If you are concerned about overpopulation, education, contraception and more choice to either opt not to have children or indeed to have them, will make for a less dense population and a better and happier society. The problem in the uk at the moment is that we have a rapidly aging population, as we all enjoy longer lives, but because women here have access to education, contraception and a level of choice here, birth rates are low. Some people argue worrying low, but I personally think this is less worrying. There is a balance to be struck though.

Cos I’m old

I’m not going to abort my baby because someone on Mumsnet tells me to.

@Moomin12345

People have babies in war zones, extreme poverty, in places with zero sanitation and hostile climate. I don't think Covid is scary enough to trump people's biological urges to reproduce. Most babies would probably survive catching it, so I don't see why people should wait. Zika virus would definitely give me pause tho.

For me though the worry wouldn’t just be about the baby catching it.

I’d not feel right knowingly using NHS services for something I want currently when there are so many people waiting for essential things.

There’s the economic aspect, not many have truly safe jobs. The risk of a parent becoming ill not the child. The housing and job market. Then there’s the future of the child, given the outlook at present it’s not something I would want for them.

@13:12FluffyKittensinabasket what an unnecessary comment. Good for you.

@IceCreamAndCandyfloss sure, all valid points but wanting a baby is often driven by primal urges (hormones) and isn't rational. You can rationalise any emotional decision. Part of me thinks there's never a good time to have a baby. One needs to have a rose tinted myopic view of the world and humanity. Ultimately, it doesn't matter how bad things get, how warm the world becomes and how many new viruses pop up. People WANT babies, viscerally, like sex, sleep and food. We're all deeply selfish.

I’d not feel right knowingly using NHS services for something I want currently when there are so many people waiting for essential things.

Have they been redeploying midwives and obstetricians into coronavirus care where you are? In my area maternity provision has continued exactly as normal. There isn’t a great deal of crossover between maternity care and respiratory virus care.

I'm accidentally pregnant right now. Didn't plan on having anymore kids at all never mind at the moment and I agree. I'm really worried about the next few years.

Are you still having the baby despite being really worried?

I'm pretty certain I'm not going to have kids.

I've been questioning myself a lot over the past few years, trying to make sure that whatever decision I make on this is one that I've thought through as much as I can, rather than being socially driven or purely biological (although no sign of any biological drive kicking in, so... who knows about that).

It's especially hard since DP already has a child, and is completely fine with whichever way I decide, so I don't even have his preference to blame

I'm about 85% sure I don't want to have children, but every now and again I get this wave of fear that I'm making a choice I'll regret.

And the thing that feels like it reconfirms my decision not to become a mother in those moments is looking at the news.

The planet warming up, the climate migrants I already see landing on the shores of the island I live on, the narcissism of social media... Rightly or wrongly, I do feel like I'm living in an episode of Black Mirror, and I don't want to bring someone into that world.

It's definitely not the main driver of how I feel about becoming a mother, but it definitely has a role to play.

And when I look at my friends who are having children or are pregnant right now, what I feel for them is a combination of fear, hope, admiration and relief that it's not me. I love them, so I will love their kids, AND I'm genuinely scared for what they may have to live through, AND I hope that nothing but good things happen for them, AND I'm glad it's not me. I'm concerned enough about my DSS and he's a teenager and he's not even mine.

I feel so many things about it all, especially at the moment. So I kind of get where the OP is coming from (I've skimmed the thread, not RTFT), and I don't feel quite the same (although in my less thoughtful moments it might cross my mind in similar wording)

[quote Moomin12345]@IceCreamAndCandyfloss sure, all valid points but wanting a baby is often driven by primal urges (hormones) and isn't rational. You can rationalise any emotional decision. Part of me thinks there's never a good time to have a baby. One needs to have a rose tinted myopic view of the world and humanity. Ultimately, it doesn't matter how bad things get, how warm the world becomes and how many new viruses pop up. People WANT babies, viscerally, like sex, sleep and food. We're all deeply selfish.[/quote]
I honestly don't think it's always as clear cut as this post makes out tbh.

It definitely can happen this way. The poster earlier who said she had her dcs ten years ago, because she let her biological urge to take over and she had two children when she really knew deep down that it was wrong. Now she regrets it, which is awful, for her and her poor dcs.

I think, people do need to put a lot more thought into it than "I feel like a want to have babies, so I will". We have more choice now, so that means we bear more responsibility for choosing to have children. If you take on that responsibility, then it is completely backwards to then, retrospectively start wringing your hands, saying how selfish it is to have children and protecting your regret on to people who may have done more to educate themselves and make a rational decision, just because you couldn't manage it and made a decision you now regret. If you take on the responsibility, you need to be ready to raise resilient children who can emotionally withstand the changing planet as far as possibly and you need to be ready to contribute to society as it tries to make civilisation work. Not having babies, then wringing your hand and wailing about how you should never have had them at all. Jesus.

@TheMarshGirl sure, educating yourself is great and I'm all for making informed decisions. But the decisive factor often is the pure selfish desire to have a baby /family/mini me /someone to celebrate Christmas with. I'm not whinging, raise your kids to be resilient - power to them. But let's not pretend that having kids is some sort of deep analytical process for most people . Some people time it and plan it, others just have one glass of wine too many and end up with a souvenir 9 months later