To say if you don’t agree with the way schools are reopening de register your dc

[whenthejoyreturns]

I’m sick of reading about people moaning about school reopening, lack of social distancing etc. What do you want? DC off school for years and all the long term implications that will cause /is causing.
If you don’t like it, don’t send your dc but stop complaining.

SmileEachDay

So pretty much pointless as further studies have been done.

Good to know.

Thanks.

Also useless in terms of drawing conclusions because there were far fewer children.

People are focusing exclusively on risk, the idea seems to be that unless risk is effectively zero, you can't reopen.

I don't think anyone's asking for no risk at all. However to have reduced risk, and to have the same risk protection as those people working in offices and other work places would be a start.

It's not the Viner study, it is a PHE study that won't be published until later this year. Viner simply commented on it, saying so far it supports reopening.

Viner was on the team behind the other recent study I linked to above, published last week in the Lancet, which concluded that expanded test and trace could allow schools to reopen without a second wave.

I understand people are not explicitly asking for no risk but this is what a lot of comments are in effect saying. The fact that there may be some school outbreaks, that some schools may have to close again, is reason enough to keep them closed. But is it? Compared to the disadvantages of keeping everyone at home indefinitely?

I completely agree much more should be done to make things safer but they will never be completely safe in the way that some people are insisting on.

I'm waiting for Monday's announcement on schools before I comment as I'm fully expecting more safety measures to be introduced.

I agree kids need an education, but sending senior students back without SD/Masks/smaller bubbles is not the safest way to do it. We can and should do better than that.

We will see.

I think until Xmas, people should be able to keep their kids at home without de registering. I don't think the schools should be obliged to provide on line learning etc.

Risk is not objective because there are measures that can be taken to reduce risk.

For example, we live with the risk of driving with certain measures designed to increase safety - being trained and licensed, wearing a seat belt, not driving under the influence of alcohol, etc. Crossing your fingers, hoping for the best, moral arguments etc have no effect because we know they have no effect on the science of speed, distance, time etc.

Similarly, we can send our DC to secondary school with certain measures, in the midst of a pandemic, designed to increase safety - SD, mask wearing, small classes, etc. Crossing your fingers, hoping for the best, moral arguments etc have no effect on the science of viral behaviour and transmission.

I can understand why the government would try and get me to do things that were against my interests for the good of the country but I must admit I am confused by the take up of the rallying cry by others who have little or nothing to gain. I guess I underestimated 'false consciousness' and need to reread Gramsci.

I think that whatever happens there will be some interruption in education due to self isolation, waiting for test results etc especially as we are approaching cold and flu season.
I agree with another poster who suggested a National Online School to enable all kids to access an education throughout this uncertain period.
It seems unfair to disadvantage further kids with medical conditions who already miss school and those with vulnerable family mrmbers.
Thank you for clarification @dreamingbohemian

You're welcome :)

Indeed why not do something similar to what universities are trying to do with blended learning?

Oak national academy is a national online school provision. It's already out there and being added to and enhanced for the coming terms I believe too.

@Aragog

Oak national academy is a national online school provision. It's already out there and being added to and enhanced for the coming terms I believe too.

Not for A level students - they seem to have been forgotten about.

The people doing the most complaining are probably the ones on packed beaches and the ones joining the huge primark queues with no distancing.

That is good to know. Blended learning for secondary age seems like an excellent idea.

YABV fucking Unreasonable.

I want my child in school but I want her safe, I want her teachers safe, I want my vulnerable (but not shielding) immediate family to be safe.

For all that to happen school needs to be able to facilitate SD (oh and allow all that want to the choice of wearing a mask). For social distancing to happen school needs to be part time to the children, it really is the only way it can work in most schools

Anything else means our children will be back out of school by October. It is a disgrace. I will not de-register my child because I want her in school both for her sake and mine, but I also want it done safely. Pandemics don't last forever, how hard can it be for those stupid bastards in parliament to allow part time learning/blended learning for a while.

I agree it's not for a level, though I guess they are of an age where they should be able to work more independently to an extent, with guidance and monitoring from their teachers.
I think the a level provision due to its nature probably needs to come more from the exam boards if its to be a national online provision.

@Aragog

I agree it's not for a level, though I guess they are of an age where they should be able to work more independently to an extent, with guidance and monitoring from their teachers. I think the a level provision due to its nature probably needs to come more from the exam boards if its to be a national online provision.

Teach yourself A levels - whoever thought that would be a thing. The Gov seem to agree with you though given the response I had from the DoE - who talked about the excellent resources for pupils up to Year 10 no mention of A levels from them either!

I don't think anyone is suggesting children teach themselves a level.

But at a level standard some level of independent learning should be manageable for most students. Infact it used to involve more of that than it does now - I had more 'free' lessons than dd has had where we were expected to work independently on set tasks and activities. I have friends who teach a level now - I haven't for a long time - and through lockdown they've provided a lot of online materials and guides, along side set tasks which are collected in, marked, feedback given etc. Whilst it's never going to be as good as face to face lessons, at that age and that level some blended learning with some aspects online should be possible.
A national set up coming directly from exam boards would be more useful than more generic lessons such as through oak academy.

I've certainly not suggested a level students teaching themselves, as you appear to be suggesting. Just responding to the response that oak academy currently doesn't cover a level, and what a better solution might be. And yes, if we have continued lock lockdowns and schools closing at times, than a blended learning approach with national coverage direct from exam boards, with school/college based staff monitoring and feeding back, could be useful. At least at that age they need less parental support to access this than younger ages.

Having had a daughter have her a levels messed up this year I certainly don't think a level, or gcse, students have had it easy or have had enough support via the government. Support from their schools has varied from school to school, and in some cases, from department to department and even teacher to teacher.

YANBU

I worked with a Russian a few roles ago who remembers Chernobyl and what happened, and told me that the UK had a serious issue, as public servants don’t understand risk and benefit in a crisis.

I think this is shown here, as was mentioned above.

The benefits of schools opening to the public are far greater than offices opening, and so the risks acceptable will also be far higher. In taking a public sector role, it should be understood that the risks of the role will be much higher at times of national crises - and normal expectations do not apply. The extreme example is the armed forces.

The risks to the employees in Chernobyl were certain death - but the benefits of working on the plant were still enormously overwhelming.

I don’t believe people are in anyway capable of reasonable risk/benefit assessment. Many decades ago we chose that once registered in a school, the choice is not for parents of when to go - nothing has changed. I would take it further personally and insist for the benefit of all children that whoever is teaching children must be qualified to do so.

I'm not against school opening.

I just cannot see how my child will be protected in school.

If I worked anywhere else I could wear a mask, have social distancing, access to hand washing, regular cleaning of communal space etc. But to work in an airless room, with 30 other people, several of whom are within 2 metres, no masks etc I wouldn't want to work there.

Someone mentioned armed forces. - they are given guns, and bullet proof clothes etc to protect them. If they have to sit in a room with 30 other people, they would be wearing a mask unless exempt. Hardly the same at all.

Germany, their class sizes are smaller. They have been given something UK. government have said isn't needed PPE.

If a 16 year old has to wear a mask on public transport, and for their part time job, is it the amount of lynx they doused themselves in before they go to school that means they are now in a safe space?

I'm not waiting for a vaccine (still waiting for treatment for the common cold lol which is a coronavirus btw, just like flu). I'm waiting for someone high up in government to get some common bloody sense.

As yes I might de-register. Not all schools are oversubscribed and have waiting lists. For every pupil that de-registers the schools get less funding. If enough pupils leave a school, they get closed and pupils well, hope there's a place at another school.

If children don't pass it along, don't get it as bad as the elderly etc, then how do you explain what is going on in Georgia starting with the holiday camp and the news a few days ago?

Government said care homes were fine. A poster on another thread said 70% of their colleagues got it. And we all saw how horrendous that played out.

This isn't something that takes out a particular group of people. It doesn't care if you are 7 or 70. It doesn't care if you are healthy or not.

It doesn't care if you are 16 and in school or 16 and working.

Germany, their class sizes are smaller. They have been given something UK. government have said isn't needed PPE

No class sizes are not smaller. They are going back to school here in Berlin tomorrow with 25-30 kids per class. They have not been given PPE. Children will wear masks in the halls but not at their desks.

Berlin does have a much better testing and tracking regime, which the Lancet study above said was key to preventing a second wave.

This isn't something that takes out a particular group of people. It doesn't care if you are 7 or 70. It doesn't care if you are healthy or not.

This isn't true either, given the vast majority of deaths are people who are older and/or have other health issues.

@darkwader

If you are going to use Chernobyl as your example here, what is happening is that the meltdown has happened and people are saying 'fuck it, leave it uncapped its going to be with us for a long time we just have to get used to it.'

People are not saying that they don't want the schools to be opened. Most people would love them to be open fully. However they are rightfully questioning how they can be safe.

We've been told not to mix more than 2 households. Told we need to wear masks. Told to keep 2m apart. Wash hands regularly.
How do you match this with the reality of the situation in schools?

If mine were at the infant school, I don't think I'd worry. They've space, and will I imagine do a lot outside, plus have toilets per classroom. The teachers stay with one class, and the children don't really mix classes much.

But they're at a large secondary. They've decided to "bubble" year groups as per the guidance. That's 300+ children in each bubble. That's not a bubble, that's a volcanic eruption...

Around 2/3 of the children arrive by school on packed school buses.
The school is full to bursting, with no spare classrooms and classes under 6th form at least 30 per class.
The toilets are small and roughly 5 boys/5 girls toilet blocks, most of which couldn't fit more than 2 children in at a time when social distancing. How are they going to be washing their hands regularly?

This cannot fit with the advice that we've been given since March about how to stay safe.

And it's all very well to think that the children don't really get ill. Most don't. But what about the ones who have been shielding. What about those who have undiagnosed health issues-that could be your dc?

For me, one of mine is 6th form, which is smaller, and is generally healthy. She's not a worry. My other is normally ill with one with after another from late November through to end of February. And he had an operation in June. I will be pulling him out, and the school is supporting me in this, if numbers are climbing in November.
But it makes you think about the parents who have a child with cystic fibrosis, cancer, immune issues, diabetes... how are they feeling? Would you send your child to school with that risk?

The government has not answered the risks in school, merely ignoring what they are stating to be the risks outside school. It reminds me of playing hide and seek with dd2 when she was a toddler. She'd close her eyes and stand still on the basis that if she couldn't see you, you couldn't see her.
They're not addressing the issues, because if they start trying they'll realise that they cannot with the current school system and what they are asking people to do outside school.

What they needed to be doing was far earlier on in the pandemic acting on the situation. It's no surprise that it hasn't gone away-that was predictable in March, more surprise if it had gone away. They should have been spending April, May, June on working out how to make schools safe. Spending money to decrease the risk. Maybe a washbasin outside each classroom? Could they have looked at bringing supply teachers in to do out of hours and make 3 sessions a day morning/afternoon/evening so you could split the school better?

The whole situation feels like they're riding by the skin of their pants. Not thinking about the issues, but just saying "oh the schools must go back whatever" and not really facing up to the real situation.

I can't be bothered to read and reply individually to each post but the gist seems to be:

You can't compare Swedish schools because they didn't completely fail they're "different" to our schools, rending the Swedish/Finnish study useless. Plus they closed to over 16s and that's "basically a lockdown anyway". You can't rely on data from our schools up until the end of term because it was only those children most likely to have coronavirus of keyworkers and not all children. Despite there being little social distancing and lots of mingling with many schools with quite a lot of pupils in attendance. I also know of one school in my local area which opened to any children who's parents wanted to send them for the last few weeks of term. Admittedly it wasn't full so presumably that data is useless. You can't link to studies which are not published yet because, well they're not published yet, but reporting on them in the media is useless because it's the media which is not biased to fear and doom and therefore biased the wrong way and effectively useless (as though The Guardian would ever report good news).

All that is allowed is fear and bad news. Anything else doesn't count. Ok. In that case, keep your kids off. Crack on. Let mine go back to school which I believe, and which evidence I have seen seems to suggest, is quite safe.