To ask if Gentle Parenting works or is it a fad?

[Overthinker1988]

I'm a member of a few FB groups about baby wearing and alternatives to sleep training, which led me to Sarah Ockwell-Smith and her "gentle parenting" methods.
It sounded appealing, because when my baby gets older I want to avoid the kind of parenting I got as a child (lots of shouting, smacking and stress all round).
But after reading her book I'm confused. She says boundaries should be enforced but doesn't actually say how to do that, other than vague advice to "communicate" with your child.
Ok but what if they just refuse to do what you say? Time outs and removal of privileges are banned, so what then?
Praise and rewards are also bad apparently. So instead of saying "well done" you should say "I bet you're proud of doing XYZ". I'm not sure I'd ever speak like that, seems a bit robotic.
It seems that gentle parenting is becoming more and more popular though. Is anybody here doing it, and does it work? Or do you think it's just the latest trend?

It works. It's not about whether kids are well behaved or not. It's about setting them up for life. Modelling calm ways of managing emotions and solving conflict.

Compliant shouldn’t be taken as criticism: it’s a character type. DS2 is compliant by the above definition and it’s part of his character, he is sweet and considerate and generally compliant. I didn’t do anything to make him that way, it’s the way he is wired. DS1 - not so much ;-) I remember him squaring up to a parent in a park once, when he felt his new-made friend was being treated unfairly and he wanted to make his case :-) he’s bold, determined, doesn’t back down - and not remotely compliant ;-) Again, I don’t take the blame for that.

OP you have described exactly why I do not like Sarah Ockwell-Smith. She does talk some sense but I despise how she spends her entire book telling you what you shouldn't do, then spends ages criticising everyone who does not agree with her but doesn't actually tell you what you should do! This is for parenting, sleep, discipline and most other things she has talked about. I briefly joined her GP fb group but left because I was so fed up of everyone going on and on about how xyz parented differently and they were being so awful to their child because they dare tell them off.

As others have said, children cannot be treated as equals in all contexts - we as adults are the ones who decide what we can and cannot afford, whether watching tv all day is appropriate, eating ice cream for breakfast is not an option. I also feel that her opinion on no rewards does fall flat a bit when comparing to adult life as we all work for the reward of being paid and affording a nicer lifestyle.

However, I read her books because I wanted us not to be a shouty family and I am completely against smacking children. I am certainly not a model 'gentle parent' if her books are anything to go by but I try be clear of what I expect from my children in advance, and most importantly, I try really hard to model the behaviour I expect from my children. I don't always succeed and sometimes do shout but we are all human

I am full-time working mother of two who has to do schools and nursery runs. I definitely do not have time to spend 40 minutes gently cajoling my toddler to get shoes on or in the car seat when I have 10 minutes between my nursery and school pick-ups. I bark orders and, if necessary, will stuff the toddler into the car seat. I also do not have the energy or time making up games every single time my toddler strops about something (can be multiple times a day). Thankfully, things improve as the children get older and more rational and communicative.

While some aspects of "gentle parenting" are sensible, I find that it is very often used to beat women up, guilt-trip them into ignoring their own needs, and direct their energy into domestic drudgery. Instead of balancing the needs of all the members of the family, it makes children the centre of the universe (for women, of course, I bet most men could not be arsed determining what "parenting style" they are). I regard it part of the anti-feminist backlash.

This is very interesting to read, my kids are older but I do wonder how it would have turned out in my house if we’d used gentle parenting, as I did shout when they were younger. I had 2 boys 18 months apart and they used to fight, and felt like they were trying to destroy the house at some points. My youngest DS would flat out refuse to comply, tantrum and was (still is) very headstrong. I had to keep Order and felt like a referee - strong and well enforced boundaries were needed, as well as stopping them knocking the shit out of each other, it would have been completely ineffectual to say ‘come on darling it’s not nice to ram your brother with the scooter is it dear??’ They are teens now and pretty well turned out. I would have liked to have shouted less, but it would have been carnage.

I read parenting books to work out how the hell to parent my DD effectively (no, not got there yet either). Gentle parenting sounds so lovely but DD would take it as an incitement to be even more frightful, I think. She has strong emotions, strong desires and strong will plus is really anxious. I feel absolutely crushed by parenting sometimes and I'm no pushover.

Yes, like a referee! That's a good analogy.

I’m a fan of natural consequences - if you cheat, you can’t play the game; if you snatch, you can’t have the item. But this is as a teacher, and is part of a behaviour policy suited to older children.

With my own toddler I’m trying to find a middle ground. I would never ever want to be Shouty Parent, but equally I have taught children who have never heard the word no and boy do they have a big adjustment coming when they join a class of 30....

Does shouting ever actually work on toddlers though? Mine just laughs, or shrieks back because she's copying me, neither of which is very effective

I do find choices or natural consequences where possible works the best - you walk ahead or go in the pushchair, which? And if she doesn't decide just bundle her up and pop her in

But like I said above who knows how long this will work!

I really dislike the idea that a lot of parents have that your kid is your enemy, or trying to manipulate you, and has to be controlled.

This! This is the key difference to me too. I find it so sad that it seems to be mainstream to think really badly of your DC from the start, rather than trusting them to be good people

Children aren't "little shits" - they naturally want to cooperate with us and learn social rules. As much as they, age appropriately, lack in say concentration or self restraint or emotional regulation, they do better than us the adults in other ways, say being in the moment and being curious and energetic. They deserve our respect as human beings, and to feel seen and appreciated.

Also as social beings in a way they act as they are 'expected' to by us - so if we fundamentally see them as 'naughty' and incompetent, they are actually more likely to behave like that, as at the end of the day they want to fulfil our expectations of them. They also learn what the social rules through observing what we model - so why expect a child not to hit when the parent smacks them?! Or to learn to regulate their emotions when the parent clearly didn't regulate their own frustration enough to not just use their superior strength / force to deal with a situation they didn't like.

Only read the first three pages so far but @Overthinker1988 (and other PP who asked this) the way boundaries are enforced (at least how I understand it) is:

1. Say yes whenever you actually can (when there isn't actually a reason to say no other than wanting to assert one's authority for the sake of it) - it actually makes saying no easier when it is necessary, because the child feels seen/respected overall and so there's no need to fight every single no or to misbehave just to get attention. I find this totally works.

2. If you do need to leave the house or stop a behaviour or whatever, you just don't budge from your no. But as far as the situation allows (so of course not a danger situation) you explain the reason rather than just saying "because I said so" or using force; and you allow the space for, and empathise with, any feelings of frustration or disappointment that the child might understandably feel. So you try to be patient enough to let them get through their meltdown and empathise with their upset, even if you also keep reiterating that it is necessary to now do/stop X. Ime this absolutely works too - it just sometimes takes a few minutes of patience, but the next time it's already easier... and it's not just right in and of itself to treat children with this respect but also well worth it as there's so much more cooperation generally that way, rather than everything being a battle, or playing up because that's the best way for the child to receive the attention (ie feeling seen) they need.

(and if there wasn't the time to explain and empathise and so on, you just come back to it when there is time, say once you are on the train you couldn't miss or whatever.)

100% yes. I raise my children to be their own person who is valued, loved, listened to and respected.
A lot of it is based on facts and psychology.
It’s not permissive which it often gets confused with.
A lot of people seek gentle parenting style because of the negative way they were patented themselves and they want to break the cycle, me included.

I'm all for not using physical or shouty punishments and teaching my children to resolve things through communicating but nothing will convince me that not using praise alongside reinforcing a positive self image is a good thing.

The thing with the praise is that it teaches extrinsic motivation, which is actually the number one killer of intrinsic motivation. Good book on this is Alfie Kohn, Unconditional Parenting

Kids listen to the first five or six words you say then the rest of it is blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Explaining ad infinitum doesn't work. Natural consequences do. Don't get your pajamas on? Then no time for a bedtime story.

How to talk so kids will listen has been a useful guide for me.

Quote from Alfie Kohn -

"In fact, one experiment after another has demonstrated that rewards are not only ineffective—they’re often counterproductive. For example, researchers have found that children who are rewarded for doing something nice are less likely to think of themselves as nice people. Instead, they tend to attribute their behavior to the reward. Then, when there’s no longer a goody to be gained, they’re less likely to help than are kids who weren’t given a reward in the first place. They’re also less likely to help than they themselves used to be. After all, they’ve learned that the point of coming to someone’s aid is just to get a reward.

In short, it almost always backfires to offer children the equivalent of a doggie biscuit for acting the way we want them to. But that’s not because we used the wrong kind of biscuits or gave them out on the wrong schedule. Rather, it’s because there are problems with the whole idea of trying to change people by rewarding (or punishing) them."

Omg thank you for this thread, I have exactly the same question. Gentle parenting seems great and it's very much my style, but it doesn't actually tell you any techniques for managing bad behaviour, it just seems to imply that if you're doing it right, it won't happen in the first place, which, er - what?

For example 21 month old can be quite defiant. We're not shouty or authoritarian and communicate a huge amount with him, always make sure to explain things very very well, give him lots of notice of what's happening next... but he will do things like - he knows he is not supposed to hit either of us. He knows it is wrong, we have read the 'hands are not for hitting' book 100 times, we have explained and explained it hurts, it's wrong, we don't do it, gentle hands etc. But it's not aggression as such - he will look at us, get a gleam in his eye and do it, specifically to get that reaction, to see what we'll do. And before anyone says its attention seeking, I can be sitting on the rug with him, playing blocks, absolute quality 1:1 time and he does it.

So.... how do we handle that then? Seriously, I would love a book or method recommendation please, because it's not very useful when it's just 'oh, try to understand why your child is frustrated/feeling aggressive' when that's not the issue, I 100% believe it's a boundary testing thing. Sorry for the derail op, but - help!

@pandarific Have you tried suggesting an alternative to him - "no we don't hit, here, stroke like this, stroking is nice"?
Sometimes hitting and biting can be ways of expressing something they cannot put in words yet. Or maybe wanting physical touch.

Thanks @Leah00. Yes we've done a bit of that but could do more certainly. But it's the defiant deliberately testing behaviour itself rather than the subject of you get what I mean. There was a phase of throwing the water jug on the floor from the counter, because he knew he wasn't supposed to do it, or taking the stones from the raised bed and throwing them on the floor - again, not allowed to do that - eyeballing us the whole time.

I mean i like the sound of natural consequences, but eg removing him from the thing is not that useful as he's only 21 months and hasn't much of an attention span, so he seems to be like 'meh, on to the next thing!'

@pandarific ah we've had a bit of that! What kind of works is that if she goes to hit for example we say "I'm not going to let you hit me because it hurts" and go away for a bit, if she's in a safe area even leave the room for a while. I appreciate all this isn't always possible. Likewise pick the leaves off the houseplants - means I can't leave you here in the living room so you'll have to go to room for a bit on your own and then we'll try again

But I'm not for a minute suggesting that either she or we are very good at all this!

@pandarific Janet Lansbury would say that is absolutely a boundary testing thing.

She would say that you catch his arm and say "I won't let you hit me". And that's all. No need to make a big thing about it. No need to explore feelings or distract away. (If he does have feelings about it, that's also fine, and doesn't need to be ignored/punished). Simply don't let him to it, and when he moves on to the next thing, that's fine. He's one. They do that. He is still learning that when you say you don't allow hitting, you mean it.

THAT kind of clear instruction is so much more helpful I find than the "gentle parenting" stuff. It's a shame because there is SO MUCH in gentle parenting which is good but it does lack the instruction around clear boundaries. It's somewhat afraid of boundaries, actually, despite all the GP websites claiming "Oh no you can definitely have boundaries with gentle parenting!"

Couldn't agree more with all that @Leah00 has said.

@BertieBotts oh that's so helpful, thank you. I did have a quick look at her books but I couldn't see one in particular on toddlers and I'm just keen to get something with actual practical advice like you just gave me.

Is there one in particular that you'd recommend?

For stones or counter - at that age go between the child and the thing, be a barrier, same kind of statement "I don't want you to do that/I won't let you do that" if it's very persistent and/or you need to be somewhere else, then you might say something like "I can see you're having a hard time not throwing the (jug/stones). I will move the jug/we will have to go indoors, because I can't stay with you to help."

You don't need to be angry because you're in control and you're confident about your expectations. If he can't/won't do it, then you'll help him do it, which you can because you're the adult.

No I don't like her book. I would recommend her podcast and blog, both of them are free on her website :)

I found her book utterly devoid of any useful advice!