To not necessarily want a well-behaved child?

[OneStepAheadOfTheToddler]

Ok, so the title of this thread is perhaps a little more controversial than I was intending it to be.

I was a well-behaved child. Everyone always complimented my parents on how my siblings and I behaved. We were quiet, shy, always stayed by their side, never ran away to explore and, if we ever did anything to show them up, were made to feel so guilty and ashamed about it that we never did it ever again. We hated shouting and raised voices and couldn't bear to disappoint our parents. We would never have dreamt about joining in with the naughty kids at school and weren't very good at making friends, although this is something that we've all got better at as we got older and discovered that actually we do like to enjoy ourselves after all . I was speaking to MIL the other day and she said it was exactly the same for her and her sisters; they wouldn't say boo to a goose, lived in fear of their parents' anger, didn't have much fun and had very little confidence or self-belief. In both cases, our parents could take us anywhere.

DS is not a well-behaved child. He's a sweet, funny toddler who never bites or hits. But he has ants in his pants, can't sit still for more than two minutes, loves doing naughty things for a reaction and yelling and telling off doesn't seem to have any impact. He's not afraid of anything. Whenever we go anywhere, he is off exploring in a trice. He is very sociable, loves other children and will always join in with any game that is going on. We stopped going to toddler groups for a bit since he was always the leader of the 'naughty boys' (with the occasional girl) who would run around the room in circles rather than listening to the lovely music teacher and it was too embarrassing. I have never been complimented on his behaviour and probably never will be. Though apparently he behaves much better in nursery and they're very fond of him. But I can't take him anywhere.

Now, I know there is a balance to be struck - we need to be firmer with DS whereas our parents probably went too far in the other direction. But the holy grail on here seems to be "Oh yes, I can take my children out for a 3 course meal in a Michelin-starred restaurant and they behave perfectly". Is it personality or parenting? And are parents of well-behaved children concerned that their children might struggle later on in life, as we did? If not, because your children are that perfect blend of well-behaved and confident, how have you achieved this? What tips can you give me?

YABU if you think that well-behaved=shy, cowed and mousy=doesn't make you happy whereas poorly-behaved=spirited=happy. Imo that's the kind of wishful thinking that parents of badly-behaved kids cling to, but it's just not true.

Based on my 20+ years of teaching experience, the majority of well-behaved kids are not mousy, shy and cowed, and a large proportion of badly-behaved kids are unhappy.

From a parent's perspective,both my dc (now 12 and nearly 15) have always been well-behaved kids, not willful or naughty, but still pretty confident with big personalities. I don't know if it's genes, luck or parenting tbh. I certainly wouldn't claim all the credit. I was a very easy, biddable child. Dh not so much...

*He will absolutely climb the wrong way up the biggest slide in the park because he is completely fearless

That’s a good idea of a teachable moment, actually.

Just because he can climb up the slide doesn’t mean he should.

Climbing a slide isn’t naughty. Being taught that it’s wrong and then blatantly continuing to do it is veering into naughty territory.

Decide your child isn’t doing any harm by climbing up the slide is the parenting most of us want to avoid!*

The looking me in the eye and doing it anyway would not be acceptable to me. If you've told him not to climb the slide you need to stick to that and enforce. Personally I don't agree slides should only be one way but what I taught from the start was slide etiquette. Person going down gets priority so if you want to go up you need to wait. Also if it's a wet day and shoes are muddy do not climb the slide. Good early lessons in consideration of others.

For me, there is a big difference in being non-compliant/"naughty" because they're determined to do something or struggling to control their thoughts and emotions vs to do something "naughty"/they know is wrong for a reaction.

The former I can get and do agree it's be better for kids to feel comfortable doing it at times than being too scared even when it can be really frustrating for parents. It's part of becoming an individual, though even then they need to learn how far they can push boundaries.

The latter doesn't sound like a good thing at all and, even now with a teen who has previously tried to say shocking things to get a rise, I pull him up on it - I ask him specifically what reaction he's going for, often he doesn't know and we have to talk through it and why that's not an appropriate way to get it. I don't want any of my kids to spout shite or do risky behaviours to either impress or piss someone off. I don't want it now that they're too strong for me to be able to do much about their choices, and as a disabled parent I was very aware that day came sooner for me than most, so I couldn't let them get away with it as toddlers.

So yes, my fearless climber who giggled at others' reaction got pulled off and asked if he needed help to do it properly. Didn't really take many tries for him to stop doing that. He still takes risks, he's just now has more experience to know which ones are worth it and which ones aren't in the long term.

Cant think of anything worse than Goodie Two-Shoe kids.. blurgh...love a bit of cheekiness and personality.. my son is exactly the same as yours and thank god

I also disagree that teachers favour quiet children. I think they often get overlooked. In fact, I think society in general tends to favour extroverts. I used to get really fed up of people describing me as 'quiet' as, actually, I'm nothing of the sort. But I take a while to get to know people and am the type to listen and consider before making a contribution, rather than just jump straight in. I think this happens as an adult too in that new, quieter members of teams are often considered to be taking a while 'to fit in'.
I do think it's difficult to tread the right line when disciplining a more spirited child, but behaviour that is normal at 2 and a half becomes much more problematic at 5/6/7. So, I agree with others that you have to pick your battles. We had lots of very stressful restaurants trips when our son was 2 or 3 - it wasn't particularly enjoyable an understatement as we insisted on him behaving reasonably and it was much more stressful than if we'd just let him run around and cause chaos (not that I'm suggesting that's what you do OP ). But, he's 10 now and has been a pleasure to take to restaurants for years. So, I feel that was a battle worth fighting.

Totally agree. But parents and teachers prefer them to the live-wires because they are much easier to deal with.

This one doesn't. Give me a live wire any day.

I'm pretty strict on the climbing slides thing because it isn't safe.

Climbing a slide isn’t naughty. Being taught that it’s wrong and then blatantly continuing to do it is veering into naughty territory.

But it's not wrong! It's fun, as long as the child isn't climbing the slide and repeatedly stopping other children coming down then what's the problem? My two loved climbing the slide, I'd let them do it whenever there wasn't other children waiting to come down.

Without children who think outside the box then where are our inventors and innovators of the future?

I think it depends on the age. I don't really think a toddler has much concept of being naughty or good, and running around in circles when you're 2 or 3 is expected. If he was 7 and still couldn't listen to adults or sit still then I think that's different and is naughty

@SnuggyBuggy

I'm pretty strict on the climbing slides thing because it isn't safe.

It's just as safe as sliding down it, you hold onto the sides and you climb up. You are just as likely to have an injury sliding down the slide - sprained wrists when grabbing hold of the side to slow down are just as likely as a sprained wrist if you slip when climbing up the slide.

It's not safe when there are likely to be bigger kids sliding down it.

He sounds like a pain. It's not just about how they turn out though.
If he's a nightmare for teachers, care givers, family and friends what impact is he having on their experiences? For example in a class room he's going to be disruptive and impact on others learning. He can know how to behave and still have personality. It sounds like yiu think all the kids who aren't being naughty are just little robots with no soul. Also lots of little buggers turn out OK but plenty turn into attention seeking entitled arse holes. So....

@OneStepAheadOfTheToddler

You are trying to justify his poor behaviour as “having a personality” and “not being cowed” and that too is a problem.

I'm really not. His poor behaviour is just that...poor behaviour. I don't think he's expressing his personality when he's throwing food, I think he's being a PITA.

What I'm trying to understand is the extent to which it is age-related and effective strategies to counter it. At a more fundamental level, though, I'm also trying to think about the characteristics we should be trying to instil in our children from an early age which will help them be happy and successful in later life (rather than simply "easy" for their parents and teachers).

I honestly don't believe it is possible to instill characteristics in our children that they didn't already have, in some latent form at least. Of course we can play our part in teaching children what society expects of them. We can also support them in finding out what they like to do and are good at, and we can help them manage stuff they struggle with - but otherwise, I think children are the people they are almost despite their parenting, rather than because of it. I used to be much more nurture over nature but the more I learn from my own children and families, the more I've changed my mind.

Well I did mean in a playground full of children. That is naughty, IMO. There’s etiquette when using equipment around other children.

Empty playground, work away!

The point was that once your child is told what your boundaries are and ignores it or refuses to behave appropriately that’s when you start thinking consequences, IMO.

That makes all the difference with “spirited” children.

As for inventors and innovators - they’re great! But they still need to learn how to behave in society.

@SnuggyBuggy

It's not safe when there are likely to be bigger kids sliding down it.

Neither is coming down a slide when there are bigger kids sliding down it. A child learns not to be on a slide -whether going up or down- when another child is on it.

@bettsbattenburg

Climbing a slide isn’t naughty. Being taught that it’s wrong and then blatantly continuing to do it is veering into naughty territory.

But it's not wrong! It's fun, as long as the child isn't climbing the slide and repeatedly stopping other children coming down then what's the problem? My two loved climbing the slide, I'd let them do it whenever there wasn't other children waiting to come down.

Without children who think outside the box then where are our inventors and innovators of the future?

Climbing up a slide isn’t an example of thinking out of the box for a child. It’s the behaviour of your bog standard child. The average child is selfish by nature and doesn’t care that their shoes are muddy or dirty and the next child may end up ruining their clothes coming down; or that there’s a queue at the top and they are effectively pushing in. You know what is thinking outside of the box for a child, the sign of a high IQ? A child who uses the stairs not because they are ordered to but because they care about the impact to other kids.

@OhCaptain

Well I did mean in a playground full of children. That is naughty, IMO. There’s etiquette when using equipment around other children.

Empty playground, work away!

The point was that once your child is told what your boundaries are and ignores it or refuses to behave appropriately that’s when you start thinking consequences, IMO.

That makes all the difference with “spirited” children.

As for inventors and innovators - they’re great! But they still need to learn how to behave in society.

As long as they wait their turn it doesn't matter if they go up or down. The issue would be not sharing properly and taking turns if they don't do that rather than which way on the slide they go.

Which way they go on a slide is not an issue with behaviour, taking turns is. A child can just say 'When it's my turn I'm going to go up the slide' - slides don't have a rule book to say how they have to be used.

But my point is while climbing a slide may not be morally wrong it's not safe. Kids need to learn how to use things safely, climbing slides a bad idea at the toddler stage as toddlers aren't going to have the same judgment as older children.

It's a slide, you queue at the top, you slide down it. It's not some wanky stage for expressing yourself

The average child is selfish by nature and doesn’t care that their shoes are muddy or dirty and the next child may end up ruining their clothes coming down; or that there’s a queue at the top and they are effectively pushing in.

The slide gets muddy from muddy shoes going up or down it. As for ruining clothes, nonsense! Mud comes off in the washing machine and clothes are not ruined. As for the queue, children old enough to be at the park alone can explain and younger children have a parent there to explain for them. They learn communication skills and can use them. Personally let my children do it when the park was empty or they were there with friends, which was nearly always the case at the time we went.

@SnuggyBuggy

But my point is while climbing a slide may not be morally wrong it's not safe. Kids need to learn how to use things safely, climbing slides a bad idea at the toddler stage as toddlers aren't going to have the same judgment as older children.

As explained up thread, injuries are equally likely coming down a slide. I only ever injured myself coming down, my children have never injured themselves on a slide (and never injured any other children either!)

This thread is giving me the urge to pop down to the local park after dark and have a cheeky bolt up the slide like in the good old days!

A lot of what you have said just sounds like he’s a normal 2yo.

*But he has ants in his pants, can't sit still for more than two minutes,

Completely normal. Most pre-schools spend the year getting children ready for reception and that includes sitting down for circle time.

*loves doing naughty things for a reaction

Again probably quite a lot of 2yos will do this but possibly more annoying than the other things listed.

*He's not afraid of anything. Whenever we go anywhere, he is off exploring in a trice.

As long as you can control this, this is probably going to be good for him in the long-term. Safety has to be the priority though and I wouldn’t be afraid to leave somewhere if he doesn’t listen and does something risky.

• He is very sociable, loves other children and will always join in with any game that is going on.

This is nice and really good for a 2yo.

*We stopped going to toddler groups for a bit since he was always the leader of the 'naughty boys' (with the occasional girl) who would run around the room in circles rather than listening to the lovely music teacher and it was too embarrassing.

Some children just aren’t ready for that sort of class at that age. Mine did baby ballet at a similar age and was a bloody nightmare. By 31/2 we started a different class and she was attentive, complemented on behaviour, able to practice at home etc. She was just too young for the structure at 2.

Well I'd rather avoid my toddler getting kicked in the face by someone coming down a slide.

@SnuggyBuggy

It's a slide, you queue at the top, you slide down it. It's not some wanky stage for expressing yourself

You say you queue at the top and slide down it, but you don't make the 'rules' do you? There are no rules for how a slide is used, there is how the original designer intended it to be used for fun (and for all we know they could have decided it could be used both ways, after all it's possible) but as many, many children know it is fun climbing up a slide.

Children climb things - they climb trees (which weren't designed to be climbed) and they climb slides.