To not necessarily want a well-behaved child?

[OneStepAheadOfTheToddler]

Ok, so the title of this thread is perhaps a little more controversial than I was intending it to be.

I was a well-behaved child. Everyone always complimented my parents on how my siblings and I behaved. We were quiet, shy, always stayed by their side, never ran away to explore and, if we ever did anything to show them up, were made to feel so guilty and ashamed about it that we never did it ever again. We hated shouting and raised voices and couldn't bear to disappoint our parents. We would never have dreamt about joining in with the naughty kids at school and weren't very good at making friends, although this is something that we've all got better at as we got older and discovered that actually we do like to enjoy ourselves after all . I was speaking to MIL the other day and she said it was exactly the same for her and her sisters; they wouldn't say boo to a goose, lived in fear of their parents' anger, didn't have much fun and had very little confidence or self-belief. In both cases, our parents could take us anywhere.

DS is not a well-behaved child. He's a sweet, funny toddler who never bites or hits. But he has ants in his pants, can't sit still for more than two minutes, loves doing naughty things for a reaction and yelling and telling off doesn't seem to have any impact. He's not afraid of anything. Whenever we go anywhere, he is off exploring in a trice. He is very sociable, loves other children and will always join in with any game that is going on. We stopped going to toddler groups for a bit since he was always the leader of the 'naughty boys' (with the occasional girl) who would run around the room in circles rather than listening to the lovely music teacher and it was too embarrassing. I have never been complimented on his behaviour and probably never will be. Though apparently he behaves much better in nursery and they're very fond of him. But I can't take him anywhere.

Now, I know there is a balance to be struck - we need to be firmer with DS whereas our parents probably went too far in the other direction. But the holy grail on here seems to be "Oh yes, I can take my children out for a 3 course meal in a Michelin-starred restaurant and they behave perfectly". Is it personality or parenting? And are parents of well-behaved children concerned that their children might struggle later on in life, as we did? If not, because your children are that perfect blend of well-behaved and confident, how have you achieved this? What tips can you give me?

My children were well behaved because we taught them. They understood very early on that their behaviour has consequences. the consequence of "good behaviour" is more autonomy, more freedom, independence, more fun. Bad behaviour has negative consequences (If you break peoples toys or hurt them, they won't want to share toys or play with you). If you want to play cooking, woodwork, making a fire, these are the rules about handling knives, hammers, matches. This process goes on throughout childhood. Now you've passed your driving test, this is our rule about using our car.

 My kids are all  adventurous, independent  popular adults.

Kids are born with very much an element of personality and they become who they are.

These traits shouldn't be subdued but instead encouraged whilst taught not to let them impact negatively on others.

When I was a kid, I was often told in a criticizing manner that I was stubborn, and it was united then that I needed to change my way. I am now known to be a very determined person and admired for it.

I was often commented about my eldest always wanting to be the first and take everything over. They are now admired to be embarking on a career that oy consider people with very strong leadership skills.

What I think is important is to teach our kids that any traits have positives and negatives and therefore need to be channelled to bring the best of them and not let it impact on them badly.

One important skill that I believe need to be taught to any children is the ability to learn to concentrate because any adult will need to do so to always learn and move forward. For some, it will come naturally, for others, it will much harder and take longer.

I do feel sad when I get to know parents of 'energetic' children who consider them as such and never allow them to learn to slow down, pay attention, listen. These kids often struggle as they get older as they find it impossible to focus on any task for long.

You are trying to justify his poor behaviour as “having a personality” and “not being cowed” and that too is a problem.

I'm really not. His poor behaviour is just that...poor behaviour. I don't think he's expressing his personality when he's throwing food, I think he's being a PITA.

What I'm trying to understand is the extent to which it is age-related and effective strategies to counter it. At a more fundamental level, though, I'm also trying to think about the characteristics we should be trying to instil in our children from an early age which will help them be happy and successful in later life (rather than simply "easy" for their parents and teachers).

Totally agree. But parents and teachers prefer them to the live-wires because they are much easier to deal with.

I don't believe this to be true. I work in school and the very shy and compliant dc can be hard to engage with. Equally so does being Uber confident and difficult. I wouldn't like to have a painfully shy, awkward dc for their sakes and for mine. Having character, confidence and a strong personality however does not need to equal rude/naughty/disruptive at any age.

@midnightstar66. You're right, of course...Both extremes are difficult to deal with.

Your experience was one of that time/era as many of us . I'm a lot older than you and I was brought up not to be a bother to anyone . eg go to a relatives house and if asked if you wanted a drink say no . Far too extreme ! Your child is a toddler whereas they do tend to rein in a bit when they are about 5 or so . It is your job though to help create a functioning member of society and instill decent values in them . No one wants to have the child who is expelled from nursery for biting people !

Why is it so hard to believe that some kids don’t have tantrums?

@JizzPigeon22. You'll have to excuse the disbelief, I think it's because not many of us have been as blessed as you .

Far from blessed but ok!

@CantSleepClownsWillEatMe

I can definitely relate OP as I was parented in a similar way to you and your mil. I think people who haven’t experienced that kind of strict upbringing won’t understand that it goes far beyond good manners and age appropriate behaviour expectations - for us it was a requirement for absolute compliance and just ridiculously ott reactions and punishments for the most minor transgressions. That kind of upbringing doesn’t produce people with healthy self esteem, confidence in their own opinions or the ability to assert themselves and their own needs.

So yes, good manners and consideration of others are important and we’ve always had clear expectations around behaviour for our dc but I certainly don’t consider a “well behaved child” quite the measure of good parenting that some do.

^ this.

I was the same and only got a backbone when ds needed me to fight for him and what's right.

It's then I realised that my very compliant child would grow up the same if I did t teach him to self advocate.

I'm not entirely sure it was exactly due to upbringing (my brother and sister aren't like this) but a combination of personality and perceived expectations. But my parents were strict and I was eldest so was held to higher standard.

I just think I needed to be told (as I now tell ds) it's ok to make mistakes and it's ok to have an opinion and express it

It's not hard to believe kids don't have tantrums.

But for those that don't, it's not because of stellar parenting.

I have one angelic child who has never had a tantrum (some folded arms and hmmphing yes) but it is in no way due to how I parent her. I can't take credit for her personality the way I can't take the blame for my son's inclination to loud and often vigorous defiance (although to be honest I do, very often, ask myself if it's because of me..)

@Sheeshisthatthetime

Who the fuck are all these people whose kids never ever had tantrums?! Little bit of convenient 'memory failure' there I suspect.

Not at all. My ds js extremely passive. (He's autistic and maybe related)

And if you read I said it's actually just as worrying as those who tantrum every time things aren't their way.

I’m with you, OP! I was a very compliant child who was fearful of punishment and I firmly believe it was the cause of my social anxiety from the age of about 13-20. Someone mentioned “compliant” Scandinavians- I work with several Scandis and I think they have a great sense of community, equality and understanding towards others. Their behaviour is based on respect for others and not fear, which is key imo.

I was often commented about my eldest always wanting to be the first and take everything over. They are now admired to be embarking on a career that oy consider people with very strong leadership skills.

I see what you are saying as you need gumption and self confidence to direct a team, but even in the army "strong leadership skills" nowadays involves listening, being prepared to take your turn and getting your hands dirty, leading by example, in addition to giving commands.

My daughter is 4 and has never had a tantrum ever. I don’t think I’ve ever needed to raise my voice or ever speak to her about her behaviour.

I asked my mum about it as I was expecting terrible twos or a threenager tantrums and she said I was the same as a child so it potentially it is just personality. There are three other girls in the childminders with her and they are exactly the same, a tendency to get upset if they do something incorrect rather than get angry about it.
I’m keeping an eye out as I was an anxious child but she does swimming, theatre, ballet and gymnastics and has loads of friends everywhere she goes. She’s pretty confident and has been on stage a few times already so I’m not too worried.
She’s polite and I know I can take her anywhere and we’ll be fine, I don’t see that as a negative. She just is who she is and it hasn’t taken any form of control or punishment for her to be that way. Just reminders to say please and thank you and I take time to explain things to her.

Both myself and my husband are both pretty laid back as well, neither of us are highly strung or high energy so maybe she is just a more chilled personality.

Looking back on my childhood I thought my parents were strict but I have a feeling it was me who was strict on myself and I’m just looking back on it differently. I’m a perfectly confident adult. I think genetics have a larger impact on personality than we like to think as well

I think the question is, why is a child behaving well? Because they have learned to care about others and their needs or because they are afraid of the consequences from parents of they don't?

I disagree that teachers favour compliant children. Shy, quiet children are actually really hard to engage with and build a relationship with. They’re the ones it’s really hard to write a report for as they don’t give you very much despite being well-behaved and getting on with their work.

There is a difference between being spirited and confident and outright naughty. Some of my favourite pupils to teach have had big personalities, somewhat boundary pushers, but those who know just about where the line is and can reign in it. Some children behave awfully - they’re rude, entitled, have a complete disregard from rules. This is often a result of parenting. This is not the same as a slightly boisterous, bouncy, inquisitive child who needs a little helping hand with learning expectations.

My almost 2 year old is full on. He’s a runner, a climber, an explorer and adventurer. He does not sit still and will look you dead in eye while he’s contemplating doing something he knows he shouldn’t. He will absolutely climb the wrong way up the biggest slide in the park because he is completely fearless. He’s fab. He’s not naughty - he’s a toddler. A toddler who’s going to need a firm hand and who runs me ragged but he’ll get there and he’ll learn boundaries. But, I‘m certain the personality traits of his that leave me exhausted by the day’s end will be huge attributes in later life.

I also agree it's better in the long run to teach children to behave because good behaviour is the right thing to do rather than fear of punishment. You can't keep the second one up so well as they get older.

I would prefer to work with your son than with a child who just sat quietly all the time and wouldn't say boo to a goose. He sounds lovely.

Who the fuck are all these people whose kids never ever had tantrums?! Little bit of convenient 'memory failure' there I suspect.

I honestly remember clearly the one time dd1 had anything resembling a tantrum as a toddler when we had to wait hours in a hospital waiting room and I wouldn't let her go back to the play area for fear of missing or turn as someone else wound be straight in and take the slot. It was still fairly mild. The next time was aged around 6 when she saw a friend on our way to a club. We were running a bit late but she went off with her in the opposite direction and just ran and ran with her. When I finally got her attention to come back I made her come home rather than taking her to her club and she cried and begged. That was honestly it! Dd2 however more than made up for it!

He will absolutely climb the wrong way up the biggest slide in the park because he is completely fearless

That’s a good idea of a teachable moment, actually.

Just because he can climb up the slide doesn’t mean he should.

Climbing a slide isn’t naughty. Being taught that it’s wrong and then blatantly continuing to do it is veering into naughty territory.

Decide your child isn’t doing any harm by climbing up the slide is the parenting most of us want to avoid!

My 2 have ADHD trying to have them behave was an impossible task.

I did let them run around a lot. I didn’t tell them off but tried to rein them in if they went above a certain decibel or went too far away.
Neither lacked confidence or friends.

Both are incredibly kind people. Dd won an award at school because she helped someone at a tube station who had an accident and no one else stopped to help. Giving the woman her bottle of water and using her packet of tissues to put over the wound. Getting someone above ground to call for an ambulance and waiting with her till the paramedics arrived

She was 10 years old at the time.

I was so frightened of the consequences of getting something wrong I tend to even now look at things that involve me being part of a team and think I can’t do that as I am do fearful of getting things wrong.

Dc have been allowed to make mistakes without being made to feel the world was going to end.

think you need to look closely at your parenting because in an effort to avoid an upbringing like your own, you are raising a child with no boundaries, and that will have a far greater consequence later in life.

This. And the fact that he behaves at nursery speaks volumes. Children need boundaries. The world is uncertain for them and knowing what’s allowed/not/acceptable/not is a wonderful and confidence-building thing, imo.

Totally agree. But parents and teachers prefer them to the live-wires because they are much easier to deal with.
Complete BS this.

I'm a teacher and I love the characters however they need to know where the line is. The ones without boundaries can become very difficult, as can the ones who say nothing. Shy compliant children are hard because they give nothing to respond to.

As with all things there's a happy medium. I wouldn't want to have a 2.8 year old I couldn't take anywhere because of their behaviour. Therefore I'd sort it out.

The world is already packed to rafters with men who think they can behave as they like. Who think they’re above any ‘rules’. Let’s not add to them please.