To not necessarily want a well-behaved child?

[OneStepAheadOfTheToddler]

Ok, so the title of this thread is perhaps a little more controversial than I was intending it to be.

I was a well-behaved child. Everyone always complimented my parents on how my siblings and I behaved. We were quiet, shy, always stayed by their side, never ran away to explore and, if we ever did anything to show them up, were made to feel so guilty and ashamed about it that we never did it ever again. We hated shouting and raised voices and couldn't bear to disappoint our parents. We would never have dreamt about joining in with the naughty kids at school and weren't very good at making friends, although this is something that we've all got better at as we got older and discovered that actually we do like to enjoy ourselves after all . I was speaking to MIL the other day and she said it was exactly the same for her and her sisters; they wouldn't say boo to a goose, lived in fear of their parents' anger, didn't have much fun and had very little confidence or self-belief. In both cases, our parents could take us anywhere.

DS is not a well-behaved child. He's a sweet, funny toddler who never bites or hits. But he has ants in his pants, can't sit still for more than two minutes, loves doing naughty things for a reaction and yelling and telling off doesn't seem to have any impact. He's not afraid of anything. Whenever we go anywhere, he is off exploring in a trice. He is very sociable, loves other children and will always join in with any game that is going on. We stopped going to toddler groups for a bit since he was always the leader of the 'naughty boys' (with the occasional girl) who would run around the room in circles rather than listening to the lovely music teacher and it was too embarrassing. I have never been complimented on his behaviour and probably never will be. Though apparently he behaves much better in nursery and they're very fond of him. But I can't take him anywhere.

Now, I know there is a balance to be struck - we need to be firmer with DS whereas our parents probably went too far in the other direction. But the holy grail on here seems to be "Oh yes, I can take my children out for a 3 course meal in a Michelin-starred restaurant and they behave perfectly". Is it personality or parenting? And are parents of well-behaved children concerned that their children might struggle later on in life, as we did? If not, because your children are that perfect blend of well-behaved and confident, how have you achieved this? What tips can you give me?

So how does the unique child know it's their turn to climb the slide if everyone is queuing at the top?

A kid going up a slide takes a damn sight longer than one going down it, and additionally has to push his way past the others waiting patiently (or not) at the top for him.
Do what your kid wants in an empty park. Do what you're supposed to do to not spoil everyone else's pleasure when it's not.

I think that parents give themselves more credit for their kids' behaviour than is due.
Different kids have different personalities. Therefore my lovely step daughter is very compliant so the mum can practice ' gentle' parenting. In other words she never has to nag or raise her voice or take away priveledges.
My lovely dd is very wilful and stubborn and not compliant. This requires more sanctions, incentives nagging and occassionally voice raising as gentle parenting dosn't work.
Despite my different parenting i cannot change her personality nor do I want to although it is very hard work.

@SnuggyBuggy

Well I'd rather avoid my toddler getting kicked in the face by someone coming down a slide.

Then you make your toddler wait until the child has finished coming up the slide unless you are foolish!

So how does the unique child know it's their turn to climb the slide if everyone is queuing at the top?

Joe, I'm after you OK? Then Joe goes down the slide and Fred waits for him to finish and goes up the slide. Jim, behind Joe in the queue, has heard the exchange and waits for Fred.

and additionally has to push his way past the others waiting patiently (or not) at the top for him.

Slides have space for children to stand at wait at the top, it's not a case of pushing past.

Do what you're supposed to do to not spoil everyone else's pleasure when it's not.

Are you being intentionally obtuse? There is no supposed to when it comes to a slide. You can slide down it or you can climb up it.

Children who want to climb the slide can do so, they just have to do it sensibly. You seem to think this is impossible. I can assure you it is not.

So how does the unique child know it's their turn to climb the slide if everyone is queuing at the top?

Good point. And kids aren’t patient.

I’ve seen more than one climber kicked in the face by another kid sliding down. Sometimes they don’t see them depending on the design. Sometimes they don’t want to wait three hours for a kid to get to the top. Sometimes, they just don’t want to wait.

There is an element of ‘well, it’s your own fault really’ to the proceedings.

Same for people who put their babies and toddlers on equipment that they’re too young for and then expect other kids to tip toe around or wait ages to use a fairly quick piece of play equipment.

I just don’t think you get that much patience out of kids. Especially in a playground setting.

And I’d prefer to at least try to limit danger of injury!

Full disclosure: I don't have any children, my son hasn't actually been born yet, but I definitely want to be like you and stress more about my child'd emotional development than his behaviour.
I think you are definitely right to be more laid back about it and to value your child's feelings over how they reflect on you (I think this is the crux of it, that over-concern about children being "well behaved" treats puts too much emphasis on valuing them as an extension of/accomplishment/source of praise for the parents rather than as people in their own right).
What I would say is not to assume the boisterous/"naughty" kids are necessarily confident...I was always in trouble as a child because I had fuck all impulse control and couldn't self-regulate emotionally (I actually have ADHD which wasn't diagnosed until adulthood so that's another story) and my self esteem was fucking rock bottom, I didn't feel like anyone liked me, including my parents who definitely did try to be "firm" to what probably seemed like no effect... (just because shouting at a child etc. doesn't necessarily succeed in changing their behaviour doesn't necessarily means it has no effect on them emotionally), they're two separate qualities which aren't necessarily linked. Which yes, means as PPs have said that he can still be well-behaved and a confident leader, it's not a binary choice, but I think you have the more important point down already - he doesn't have to be both, because he doesn't have to be perfect. Nobody is perfect, but people often seem to aspire to perfection as the standard for their children as if it's their second chance at achieving it vicariously without fully realising how much it can hurt to be compared to an ideal that's difficult or even impossible to meet. So as much as I basically agree with you I'd just say it's probably worth being aware that you might tend to romanticise behaviour that deviates from yours just because it seems like a contrast to your own unhappy childhood (in the same way I want to be extra aware that even if my son is compliant it doesn't necessarily mean he's well-adjusted).
Also it can change over time, my childhood best friend was the naughtiest toddler but quiet and high achieving at school! I think a lot of the time people over-stress about behaviour patterns that are just one stage in development and then the child grows out of it anyway.
I would also ignore PPs making negative commrnts about your son/smugly comparing their own children...he's a TODDLER and he deserves compassion. If he doesn't bite or hit that's pretty good imo!

I’ve seen more than one climber kicked in the face by another kid sliding down. Sometimes they don’t see them depending on the design. Sometimes they don’t want to wait three hours for a kid to get to the top. Sometimes, they just don’t want to wait.

Then the supervising adults need to make sure that the children wait. That's why we supervise them at a park.

No, streamlined, I'm agreeing with most others on this thread that you don't let your kid go up a slide when others are waiting to come down.
We're the parents rolling our eyes at you and yours when you DO let them btw. And muttering FFS it's streamlined and that kid of hers again.

I'll keep my toddler from climbing up slides much like I'll keep them from walking in front of swings and walking into the road. It's dangerous and stupid as fuck not to discourage it until they can judge for themselves if it's safe or not.

And yes unless they know the unique child and appreciate how original they are most kids at the top arent going to want to wait for them to express themself climbing a slide.

Yes but some adults feel their children are old enough to play independently. Or maybe they’re supervising a smaller one. Or maybe they looked away for two minutes.

It happens. And everyone makes their own choices. My choice is not to have my kids climb slides unless the park is empty. Because if they get clobbered in the face it’s their own (or my) fault. And I don’t want my kids hurt!

If the park is quiet and their shoes aren't too muddy, no issue climbing up a slide. If it's busy then it's selfish, not because climbing up a slide is inherently wrong, but because it takes longer to climb up (and go back down) then to just go down. That's the balance, you can teach a child about why when it's busy you shouldn't climb the slide without saying that climbing up it is wrong; it's about thinking of other people. I hate going to the park as there are plenty of selfish parents and by extension children.

And yes unless they know the unique child and appreciate how original they are most kids at the top arent going to want to wait for them to express themself climbing a slide.

😂😂😂

One of mine is beautifully behaved, desperately eager to please and do the right thing - but because she's so compliant - her SEN problems get pushed to the bottom of the pile (thank fuck we had an epic teacher this year who didn't) over the kids whose behaviour causes issues and raises them into attention. We actually got DLA turned down because "she is a well behaved little girl"! I wish she'd be a bit more assertive - we do have regular rehearsals of her saying "no" to her pushy older sister!

DD1 is, well, she would be "spirited" if I gave her the chance to be! She is exhausting to parent, will challenge everything going in terms of boundaries constantly to sniff out any inconsistency going - and then she will argue about those inconsistencies to a level that would put any hard-nosed journalist grilling a politician to shame. It's balancing not crushing her spark and fire, with not making her obnoxious to deal with - that's a really hard act. She does well at school though - will never be a quiet wallflower - but I see no harm in that - she just needs to learn to tone the overenthusiasm down a bit - and she's getting there slowly (lockdown's set us back a looooong way). She's well liked - has a group of good friends and doesn't seem to rub people up the wrong way like I feared she would do - so I think we're doing OK with her. Just wish she'd flipping shut up sometimes!

NGosh, I seemed to have caused a slide etiquette debate. Personally, I don’t see what’s wrong with climbing the wrong way up a slide. He’s supervised and isn’t allowed to push in. If others are using it, he’s directed somewhere else or pulled off followed by a fairly standard tantrum. He’s not yet two and has limited speech. He’s learning. Equally, if he eyeballs me when he’s about to do something he shouldn’t, I don’t just sit by and let him do. He’s dealt with, age appropriately. He doesn’t get to run around doing what the hell he chooses but he is a natural boundary pusher, and quite frankly, that’s perfectly normal toddler behaviour.

I think your DS isnt being "naughty" - he is a toddler.

There are lots of things I worry about in relation to my kids who are 9 and 11 - the fact tha my son ONLY wants to do sports or iPad, he won't read a book and his spelling and writing is atrocious, the fact my daughter is so dippy as well as bright, and takes forever to organise herself. The fact that they wind each other up like hell and are lazy and refuse to help around the house with a good will!

However, one thing that has worked out well is that I can indeed take them anywhere - they are very good at behaving appropriately to the setting. They also have lots of friends and are not "quiet" or "goody goody" children.

It is possible for chidlren to be normal, have loads of friends, not be the teachers pet and yet also be able to behave well in public.

I think with mine I could this as my greatest success as a parent, to the extent that it is something I did, which may not be much. we didn't use the "fear of god " method - more I think that my kids are attuned to us because we were attuned to them, and have been out and about with us loads since they were tiny, and they pick up from us how to behave. They also both love to be out a cinemas, cafes etc. probably not least because we do and they have picked up from an early age on our enjoyment.

I remind myself I have well behaved popular friendly children whenever I despair about the less good things ...

@SisterCellophane. I think you've hit it on the nail there...I think often we aspire for our children to be well-behaved because it reflects well on us as parents. We bask vicariously in the reflected glow of their good behaviour and achievements. That's what I want to avoid.

I do want my son to be polite, kind to others, considerate and to follow the rules (even if he doesn't agree with them). For example, it wouldn't bother me if he's not enthusiastic about everything that he does at school; it would bother me if he doesn't listen to the teacher and disrupts the class. He has to learn to behave acceptably in public, but that doesn't mean 'impeccably' in my book. It means not being a PITA.

I don't necessarily always want him to put others and their feelings first, miss his turn, be no bother, sit still for hours even if he's bored, stay by my side and not go and explore or (a big one for me as a child) lie about how much he's enjoyed himself or what a good time he's had to spare the feelings of others. I don't care about whether he's in the school play or learns the piano or anything like that, except to the extent that those things make him happy.

Surely the supervising parent should be stopping the child climbing not sliding down? If I see kids climbing the slides at parks I automatically think scummy parents.

Joe, I'm after you OK? Then Joe goes down the slide and Fred waits for him to finish and goes up the slide. Jim, behind Joe in the queue, has heard the exchange and waits for Fred
And if Jim hasn't heard or thinks it's his turn as he's next in line and his shoes land up in Fred's face you'll be blaming Jim and his mum will you?

DS is lovely, funny, sweet, kind.

Yet you stopped going to playgroup.

I think you've got a few things mixed up here. Your DS sounds as though he's learning not to respect other people.

Good manners are a gift you can give to your children - I don't mean etiquette - I mean consideration for others, listening to others, respecting others. These attribute will stand them in good stead their whole lives. 'Good" behaviour doesn't mean being cowed or guilty - you need to separate out those things from your childhood.

You're setting up your son to be a rather arrogant boy/man, it seems to me ... So you need to look quite carefully at what is toddler behaviour, and what you're letting go past because "boys will be boys" - that sort of thinking about boys' behaviour seems to me to lead to all the angsty posts in here about men who really are so selfish that they become impossible to live with.

What's your DH's behaviour like?

@OneStepAheadOfTheToddler come on!

The only other poster who’s claimed that teaching good behaviour is so parents can bask vicariously in it doesn’t even have kids yet!

With all due respect the rest of us have been there and done it. And most of us are telling you that you’re child doesn’t have to be a little well-behaved machine.

But that post was off. Don’t accuse people with experience of wanting to feel smug because our kids are behaving themselves. 99% of us are just trying to help them be good and decent people.

You’re out of order with that remark, IMHO.

Good luck managing his ‘personality’ in a few years

Sorry I'm not sure I have a committed view on the slide debate! My general view on all playground matters is that DS needs to be very careful and considerate of the smaller children and babies, but the bigger ones can take care of themselves to some extent. So that's the rule I drum in...

If there's a smaller toddler climbing up, I'll make DS wait to come down. I'm less bothered with older kids who push and shove since DS can give as good as he gets. Once or twice when DS has been the climber, he's got a shoe in the face so he's more careful now ! Also, I don't let him block the slide (or any equipment) at busy times.

“ loves doing naughty things for a reaction and yelling and telling off doesn't seem to have any impact.”..

That phrase jumped out of me. Has he subconsciously learnt that he will get attention if he does something naughty?Do you follow through consequences?

Maybe spend more time reinforcing good behaviour. Ie. Praise him when he’s playing nicely.

If he goes to climb up a slide whilst others are waiting to come down, then reprimand him And carry through the threat. Eg. Going home if he’s misbehaving.

I think that kids with personality are great, but when that personality is disruptive, then that’s not so great. Having a personality doesn’t mean they can’t sit in a restaurant and behave.

@ScorpioSphinxInACalicoDress

No, streamlined, I'm agreeing with most others on this thread that you don't let your kid go up a slide when others are waiting to come down. We're the parents rolling our eyes at you and yours when you DO let them btw. And muttering FFS it's streamlined and that kid of hers again.

No, you don't. As I explained, and if you had read my posts, you'd know. I let mine do it when they were either with friends or when the park was just us.

I'll keep my toddler from climbing up slides much like I'll keep them from walking in front of swings and walking into the road. It's dangerous and stupid as fuck not to discourage it until they can judge for themselves if it's safe or not.

Why would it be dangerous when they can't judge for themselves if it is safe or not - you are there to make that judgement for them unless there is some reason you are unable to make such judgements? Parents make safety judgements for their children all the time. Some parents have different safety judgements to others, it's what parenting is like. Some parents let their children climb trees or go rock climbing, others don't.

You need to teach them to deal with different ways of doing things without what you have done on here, namely without calling other people stupid.

It happens. And everyone makes their own choices. My choice is not to have my kids climb slides unless the park is empty. Because if they get clobbered in the face it’s their own (or my) fault. And I don’t want my kids hurt!

And @OhCaptain that's fine, that's your choice to make, it's just not the same as mine. I won't judge you if you don't judge me.

If it's busy then it's selfish, not because climbing up a slide is inherently wrong, but because it takes longer to climb up (and go back down) then to just go down

Which is why, though it was ignored when I clearly stated it up thread, I didn't let my children do it when they were at the park with other children who weren't their friends. When they were there with friends they'd take it in turns and go up or down as they saw fit. Usually they'd all be doing up and down.

ScubaLubs87 you've got the right idea.

We bask vicariously in the reflected glow of their good behaviour and achievements.

This was intended as a general remark not a reflection on posters here. It certainly applied to my own parents. If you know it doesn't apply to you, don't bother getting offended - I wasn't suggesting that . Also, 'tiger parents' who push their children to excel beyond their natural capabilities and make them miserable are a real thing...