To not necessarily want a well-behaved child?

[OneStepAheadOfTheToddler]

Ok, so the title of this thread is perhaps a little more controversial than I was intending it to be.

I was a well-behaved child. Everyone always complimented my parents on how my siblings and I behaved. We were quiet, shy, always stayed by their side, never ran away to explore and, if we ever did anything to show them up, were made to feel so guilty and ashamed about it that we never did it ever again. We hated shouting and raised voices and couldn't bear to disappoint our parents. We would never have dreamt about joining in with the naughty kids at school and weren't very good at making friends, although this is something that we've all got better at as we got older and discovered that actually we do like to enjoy ourselves after all . I was speaking to MIL the other day and she said it was exactly the same for her and her sisters; they wouldn't say boo to a goose, lived in fear of their parents' anger, didn't have much fun and had very little confidence or self-belief. In both cases, our parents could take us anywhere.

DS is not a well-behaved child. He's a sweet, funny toddler who never bites or hits. But he has ants in his pants, can't sit still for more than two minutes, loves doing naughty things for a reaction and yelling and telling off doesn't seem to have any impact. He's not afraid of anything. Whenever we go anywhere, he is off exploring in a trice. He is very sociable, loves other children and will always join in with any game that is going on. We stopped going to toddler groups for a bit since he was always the leader of the 'naughty boys' (with the occasional girl) who would run around the room in circles rather than listening to the lovely music teacher and it was too embarrassing. I have never been complimented on his behaviour and probably never will be. Though apparently he behaves much better in nursery and they're very fond of him. But I can't take him anywhere.

Now, I know there is a balance to be struck - we need to be firmer with DS whereas our parents probably went too far in the other direction. But the holy grail on here seems to be "Oh yes, I can take my children out for a 3 course meal in a Michelin-starred restaurant and they behave perfectly". Is it personality or parenting? And are parents of well-behaved children concerned that their children might struggle later on in life, as we did? If not, because your children are that perfect blend of well-behaved and confident, how have you achieved this? What tips can you give me?

because all three of my dc have kids in the class whose antics they laugh at. But nobody really plays with them or wants them as friends...

I think the problem with this is that it breeds a negative cycle - no one wants to be their friends, so they act out in order to get the only positive reaction they know how to.
Then people are mean to them at playtime. They act out in class.
Then It goes round and gets worse. The kids get more miserable, and act out more.

Heartbreaking really

I should also point out that the children I am describing are very skilled at reading and writing. They simply choose not to work hard and prefer to mess around and make jokes. I am sure you're right though Bluebells that their poor behaviour overrides their obvious ability to read and write competently and that dyslexia is the cause!

I'd recommend Sarah ocwell-Smith "gentle discipline" book, I think it may help you reach the balance you are seeking.

I’m not sure there’s even a real issue OP. Obviously we MNers don’t know your child so it’s hard to comment. I was hoping you stated the age of your child... I once took my child to a class to and he didn’t want to join in and he would rather wonder off I think he may of been around 2 and half. I was mortified at the time we just never returned to that class again as I thought it wasn’t for him although we joined other groups.

School (and many adults/other parents) place a huge emphasis on “compliance”. As a result they favour children that are quiet, obedient and don’’t question authority. Until, that is, they leave home when they expect them to develop into adventurous, creative, risk takers. There’s a disjunct.

Yes, this is what I mean. I'm not excusing poor behaviour on my son's part but my "naughty" cousin is really quite astonishingly successful now he's grown up. He's also generous, funny and kind. He wasn't popular with his teachers at school and his parents used to dread parents evening.

@Boeufsurletoit. Thank you for the book suggestions, I will have a look at those.

I should also point out that the children I am describing are very skilled at reading and writing

Most dyslexics can read and write. Most dyslexics are diagnosed at university.

A lot of dyslexics has concentration, focus and memory issues.

Sorry, I think I said somewhere that my son is 2 years and 8 months (so nearer 3 than 2 really).

I think it would depend entirely on the personality of the child. Some kids are naturally quiet, shy, placid or fairly reserved and wouldn't be the sort to run about getting to mischief. Those ones would probably not need good behaviour ferociously drummed into them (as was the case with you and your siblings).

However, if you have a bombastic livewire who doesn't sit still for a second, misbehaves at every opportunity and runs around having fun getting into scrapes and winding up other kids, then you do need to rein them in a bit, otherwise they will become a complete pain in the neck and cause a load of nuisance to other people. There is also the distinct possiblilty that they could become a defiant troublemaker when they are older.

I actually get where you are coming from. Everyone comments on my 18 month old (and when she was younger) saying "oh she's so well bahaved" but in reality she's just such an anxious, shy wee thing and we've tried and tried to socialise her and will continue to do so, but it almost makes me sad when people say it. In reality at home she's a regular little monster like toddlers should be.

But when we go out or go to the doctors or playgroups etc she'll sit on my lap quietly, have a drink of juice and just watch what's going on around her.

I long for her to run around and scream and laugh.

I spent the first 20 years of my life being a “good girl” and then have been unlearning those habits ever since. No one wants their kid to be a hooligan but YANBU.

I think it’s about teasing out what your parents were doing to make you so compliant. Were they hitting or over chastising you? Did they give you no choices at all over food or what you wore? Did they not let you have friends over or go to other people’s houses or parties? What were they actually doing to get compliance?

That’s what you need to avoid. Realising you’ve got a kid whose impulse control will take a bit more time to kick in is fine. Routine, opportunity to burn off energy (a sport - maybe a minority one such as climbing as sooN as he is old enough will help), avoid for now situations were he really can’t manage but do smaller versions - so a cafe in outside seating area rather than a restaurant, a general toddler group rather than a focused activity group.

As for the poster who has children who’ve never tantrummed and always do what they are told first time - I don’t even know adults who behave like that!

My DC was always quite active so, perhaps like yours, was the one who needed constant active supervision at toddler groups, to avoid running over the babies; who at 'pre-school dance class', age 3, ran and twirled around the room, while everyone else sat down nicely doing 'nice toes, naughty toes'.

I did consider whether there was any sort of hyperactivity 'problem' but concluded not, because it was all contextual. DC could focus and sit still - but could also get carried away with exuberance in social and active settings. Very well-behaved at pre-school and school, indeed is now a very detail-oriented, perfectionist type. Sociability is a big part of it - being excited to be with people but also being very keen to fit in with the peer group, with the correct behaviour at school.

We do get all the bad behaviour at home. All the emotional overspill from holding everything together at school. I actually think that learning to relax and behave badly and make mistakes occasionally, in front of teachers and peers, would not be a bad thing.

My eldest (now 9) was similar. He wouldn’t sit still in groups and would run around in gym lessons and not do the activity (though the gym did change the program later to allow the kids to explore so I guess it wasn’t just me). It was hugely stressful and I felt a complete failure.

He still struggles at school as he does lack self control despite years of efforts from me and the teachers to get him to behave.

He’s great in most ways, I can take him anywhere and have always been able to go to cafes and supermarkets BUT he suffers terribly with over excitement and self control around other children. He’ll act up and do stupid shit he knows not to do purely out of excitement. I hate it, it drives me batshit and I cannot stop it.

I don’t think it’s my parenting, my other two kids are great and don’t suffer this at all. Sometimes no matter what you do they will struggle.

I have worked in early intervention services with young children with behavioural issues. There was an identifiable group of parents who had been brought up very strictly and sometimes been physically punished as children. They were determined to be different with their own children but had swung to the other extreme and set no boundaries, failed to teach turn taking, not interupting etc. I felt upset for them,- as their children got older they were out of control. There is definitely a middle way. Having said that, children vary a lot in individual temprement and some need firmer handling than others. OP, of course you don't want a repressed, frightened child but I am sure you want a likeable, considerate child. Also, he is still very young, you can't expect to be able to take him anywhere yet but your job is to teach him so that you can in a few years time.

Totally agree with others about choosing battles (and environments) carefully and setting expectations in advance.

I'm no expert at all, but in practical terms, I would want my child (when a bit older) to be able to conform sufficiently to be receptive to education, and to learn to be a good friend, and be polite to their teacher and classmates, which does entail being able to control yourself enough to sit and to listen and take turns and allow others to do the same. It's basic good manners. That doesn't mean they have to be unthinking robots who lack confidence though.

And I think the earlier you teach an awareness and understanding of others, in small increments, in a positive not a shaming way, the easier it will be for the child concerned to adapt to the classroom or play environment. And it would ideally be in the context of the child having a good balance of education, fun and physical activities, especially if they were very energetic by nature as mine was when younger.

I live in a country which has quite a strict and rigid old-fashioned education system (Catholic as it happens) , where more importance is placed on what is best for the group, rather than the individual, so it's a more conformist society generally than the UK. On the other hand, to balance that, DC are given more responsibility and are allowed to take far more risks at a younger age. This is slightly off the point but you should see what seven year olds are able to do (fully supervised) at our local riding school and still have lots of fun and excitement, while understanding the importance of discipline in order to keep safe. Honestly, some of it would make your hair stand on end! But it illustrates a balance in that, the more trustworthy and disciplined the child is, the more autonomy and freedom they are given. And there is a sweet spot to be found there. So, in the coming years, maybe choosing activities for your DS that will channel all that energy and curiosity in a productive way may be helpful?

[Disclaimer: I have a feisty teen who is polite and helpful at school, studies hard, has lovely friends, who happily gives up her seat for someone else, on the bus, has a strong sense of social justice etc, but can be quite horrid to live with at home at times . She hates the way I breathe apparently. So it's quite possible I don't know what I am talking about. To be fair to her, Covid-19 isn't helping. ]

The other thing that strikes me is how we are a sedentary society where a lot of children don't get enough exercise and yet we see toddlers wanting to run about as bad behaviour to be corrected.

...but context is everything. I don't think anyone would complain about a toddler running around outside, in a garden or a park, woods, soft play, playground etc....but think it could cause annoyance and more importantly be dangerous in a restaurant when people are carrying hot food, or in a supermarket for example,when they might hurt themselves if someone didnt see them and bashed them with a trolley, or in B and Q and a load of mdf falls on them!
We say my DS is like a dog who needs to be exercised every day or he gets too manic and his behaviour deteriorates and is a complete PITA

But when we go out or go to the doctors or playgroups etc she'll sit on my lap quietly, have a drink of juice and just watch what's going on around her.

I know what you mean...It's the opposite problem to ours. I've never had a cup of tea or cake at a playgroup (pre lockdown) because I'm too busy chasing DS out of the kitchen or the storage cupboards or hovering to make sure he doesn't try to climb up the slide. But one of my friends has a very shy child who is like her little shadow. We joke that she never needs to look for her DD because she's always just behind her.

As a teacher, it’s evident your child’s behaviour is a problem and he’s likely to disrupt other children’s learning and show little respect for authority. You are trying to justify his poor behaviour as “having a personality” and “not being cowed” and that too is a problem.

As others have said, it’s not an either/or issue. You can have charisma, personality and leadership skills by the bucketload AND be respectful, well behaved and pleasant to be around.

You have time to sort this out. Please do!

So yes, I agree with you, that too strong a habit of compliance is a bad thing, holds young adults back and has to be unlearned.

I think the challenge for DCs, as for many adults, is to learn to be politely assertive and to speak up for themselves more generally; to gain an understanding of their own emotions, some ability to regulate those and to communicate their wants and needs. The compliant child can be very passive and very easily overlooked.

That should have read "the more self -disciplined and trustworthy a child is, the more freedom and autonomy they are given". It's about inculcating self-discipline rather then having it imposed from outside.

I know what you mean OP. You want kids that will be able to stand up for themselves, as well as be well-behaved. A bit of rebelliousness will stand them in good stead I think.

My eldest is too compliant - he's no good at making sure he gets his turn on something for instance, and can miss out unless I get involved - trying to get him to understand it's OK to stand up for himself against more forceful kids can be hard (although he'll absolutely stand up for other people - it's just when it comes to himself he has a blind spot)

My youngest is a little bit better (perhaps I learned along the way, but I actually think it's just personality) - but still waits his turn a little more than some other kids and can miss out because of that.

It's a really tough line to hit. Polite, yet fair without being overly self-sacrificing. TBH, at 40-odd I'll often prefer to just let other people have something rather than be too forceful/rude so I can't expect more than that from my kids

The compliant child can be very passive and very easily overlooked.

Totally agree. But parents and teachers prefer them to the live-wires because they are much easier to deal with.

The other thing is which one is easier to correct. Neither is easy, but my view is that it's probably easier to teach an over exuberant and "cheeky" child to reign themselves in and behave appropriately in certain situations (especially if they are competitive and want to succeed and be liked) than it is to instil confidence and self-belief in a shy and nervous child.

Is there a happy medium, could we teach kids to be assertive and self advocating? I just think being too “good” can mean we don’t think outside the box or stick up for yourself.

I can definitely relate OP as I was parented in a similar way to you and your mil. I think people who haven’t experienced that kind of strict upbringing won’t understand that it goes far beyond good manners and age appropriate behaviour expectations - for us it was a requirement for absolute compliance and just ridiculously ott reactions and punishments for the most minor transgressions. That kind of upbringing doesn’t produce people with healthy self esteem, confidence in their own opinions or the ability to assert themselves and their own needs.

So yes, good manners and consideration of others are important and we’ve always had clear expectations around behaviour for our dc but I certainly don’t consider a “well behaved child” quite the measure of good parenting that some do.

Who the fuck are all these people whose kids never ever had tantrums?! Little bit of convenient 'memory failure' there I suspect.