To not necessarily want a well-behaved child?

[OneStepAheadOfTheToddler]

Ok, so the title of this thread is perhaps a little more controversial than I was intending it to be.

I was a well-behaved child. Everyone always complimented my parents on how my siblings and I behaved. We were quiet, shy, always stayed by their side, never ran away to explore and, if we ever did anything to show them up, were made to feel so guilty and ashamed about it that we never did it ever again. We hated shouting and raised voices and couldn't bear to disappoint our parents. We would never have dreamt about joining in with the naughty kids at school and weren't very good at making friends, although this is something that we've all got better at as we got older and discovered that actually we do like to enjoy ourselves after all . I was speaking to MIL the other day and she said it was exactly the same for her and her sisters; they wouldn't say boo to a goose, lived in fear of their parents' anger, didn't have much fun and had very little confidence or self-belief. In both cases, our parents could take us anywhere.

DS is not a well-behaved child. He's a sweet, funny toddler who never bites or hits. But he has ants in his pants, can't sit still for more than two minutes, loves doing naughty things for a reaction and yelling and telling off doesn't seem to have any impact. He's not afraid of anything. Whenever we go anywhere, he is off exploring in a trice. He is very sociable, loves other children and will always join in with any game that is going on. We stopped going to toddler groups for a bit since he was always the leader of the 'naughty boys' (with the occasional girl) who would run around the room in circles rather than listening to the lovely music teacher and it was too embarrassing. I have never been complimented on his behaviour and probably never will be. Though apparently he behaves much better in nursery and they're very fond of him. But I can't take him anywhere.

Now, I know there is a balance to be struck - we need to be firmer with DS whereas our parents probably went too far in the other direction. But the holy grail on here seems to be "Oh yes, I can take my children out for a 3 course meal in a Michelin-starred restaurant and they behave perfectly". Is it personality or parenting? And are parents of well-behaved children concerned that their children might struggle later on in life, as we did? If not, because your children are that perfect blend of well-behaved and confident, how have you achieved this? What tips can you give me?

This was always my mantra when my kids were little and were being stubborn: Who wants to raise a pushover?

I think your son sounds delightful, and his confidence and irrepressible nature will stand in him good stead later on in life when he faces challenges and adversity. Let him be and just be consistent in what behaviour is truly unacceptable. Ants in your pants are not a crime.

My oldest was a nightmare when he was a tiny one. He is now 19 and his manners, attitude and social skills are uniformly praised. Some of the things your son struggles with will come in time. Don't push him to grow up faster than is natural for him.

I don't really like the language of 'come down harder on' but I do think that we should consciously encourage concentration and calm in boys, should be mindful to talk to them often about considering other people (and do other things to encourage them to empathise with a wide range of people; for instance, do you read your son books with female protagonists? Because by default most people read boys books only about boys but girls about both, which teaches early on that boys don't have to think about girls as equal actors, or indeed really think about them at all), should try to encourage them to engage in activities that aren't just physical activity and should very actively talk to them about emotion, including other people's emotions. None of these have to be to the exclusion of other interests, but I think we have to recognise that society discourages all of these for boys and so if we want them to feel like it's an option it has to be actively encouraged. When we knew we were expecting a boy DH actively made himself get in the habit of reading for pleasure daily because he had seen research on how key it was for boys to see men reading (he's a teacher); I thought at first that this was sweet but daft but I now think that he's right, you have to actively do this kind of thing and offer male role models that aren't stereotypical because society doesn't just offer it.

But - and I can't emphasise this enough - that's just my theory and what I'm trying to do, I have one toddler too so no greater expertise and experience!

*We believe very much in disciplining! We speak very firmly, give warnings, do time outs, remove from the situation, strap in the pushchair if he runs off...It's just that DS doesn't seem to be cowed into submission by it the same way I would have been as a child

This isn't very positive. How about rules boundaries and expectations so he understands what he should do without all the punishing

I have an amazing energetic over active, loving,caring,polite DS. I have been spoken to by the headmaster regarding his behaviour twice. First time was a bad reaction to another child. The other was to tell he how he had looked after a child being picked on. I have brought up a child who sticks up for those who need it but who is a little shit at times. I have boundaries but he will push them. So long as they know right from wrong so what if he has ants in his pants!!!! Enjoy this time dont analyse it we are all doing our best and it goes so fast.

@Malbecblooms

He understands he should walk beside me holding my hand when we're next to the road, but he doesn't always want to do it. He also knows not to push other children in the playground, to say please and thank you and not to throw or play with food. I know he knows what is expected of him, because he gives me a particular look when he's about to blatantly ignore it.

Wow! I can see the perfect parent brigade are out in force!

My DD is now 5 and sounds very similar to your DS at 2/3. She is still spirited but I can happily report that we are now able to take her out for an enjoyable meal and her concentration/listening skills have improved immensely since starting Reception (and yes she attended nursery from 9 months so it’s not like she wasn’t used to structure and routine) Is she perfect? No but I wouldn’t describe her as naughty, just someone who loves to explore people and her surroundings.

Each child is different. I spent far too much time comparing my DD and now realise it was a waste of time and energy. Your DS is still very young and it will all come in time and when he is ready....

Might have been mentioned OP but if you want to instill strong boundaries while not breaking his spirit/engaging in constant battles then I strongly recommend looking up any of the following online/ on Facebook:

Janet Lansbury
AHA Parenting
Visible Child

All similar and when followed really work IME.

AHA Parenting is the bomb. Brilliant advice. Boundaries, and firm, clear rules, along with loads of love, support, coaching and listening.

My daughters were really well behaved. My late husband and I were both relatively quiet people (though very loving and we did lots of fun things with our children). But yes, we expected good behaviour and praised it a lot. We were a happy little family and thought we were getting it right. And our kids didn't seem unconfident at all. We had a good time.

Once, when we were at a family get together, an aunt said of our eldest who'd have been maybe 5 0r 6 "she's too well behaved". My husband was offended. Our nephew and niece were a different story. Similar ages but my nephew in particular was a pain in the behind who was rarely disciplined, and my SIL and her DH were very hands off.

Now all the 'kids' are in their early 30s. My eldest is a perfectionist prone to anxiety, and socially very quiet, though younger is more sociable and outgoing. We're a loving and caring three, who enjoy each other's company, and love days out and holidays together, but I wouldn't say we're naturally relaxed and chatty in the way my SIL and her DH are with theirs. Their kids who were pests have actually turned out more confident and outgoing than mine, have a great relaxed relationship with their parents, and are really close with them.

So yep, I don't know whether our parenting (which was admired at the time as everyone thought our girls were so good) was right. If I was doing it again I'd relax a little.

@Hardbackwriter. We do try! Current favourite is The Tiger Who Came to Tea with Sophie. Although the tiger is male and the book is horribly gendered in other aspects so actually that one's a complete disaster . What particularly irritates me every time we read it is that Mummy and Sophie are standing around not sure what to do until wonderful Daddy comes home from work and saves the day by suggesting going out for dinner .

Also, Madeleine, Maisie, Night Garden, Princess Polly, Room on the Broom and Mog (does a girl cat count?). He adores Peppa Pig, both the TV show and the books. He had the small Peppa Pig house with Peppa, Susie and a few other figures for his birthday and he loves acting out scenes between them and making them talk to each other. But on balance we probably do mostly read books with male main characters like Thomas the Tank Engine, Spot, Gruffalo, Winnie the Pooh, Little Red Train, Elmer, Nutbrown Hare, Dr Seuss and anything with pirates, airplanes and diggers, so maybe we could do with more of a mix. He loves Masha and the Bear when he gets to watch TV.

I'd be grateful for any further suggestions that pp have. We're always on the lookout for new books that come recommended.

A lot is age too. One of my sons was terrible at age 4. He’d run round, climb on things, shout. You couldn’t go to a restaurant or shopping with him as his behaviour was frankly ridiculous. You’d be constantly chasing him or telling him to shush. Really though a lot of that was us putting him in silly situations, as if we took him to a massive field with a picnic he was fantastic as he could run, eat whenever, make noise etc.

He’s 7 now and he’s fantastic, we often go to cafes, restaurants, museums etc and he is perfect.

Do you know, I don't think 'well behaved' is what to aim for. I think behaving respectfully and kindly is a kind of side effect of a child who has been taught how to deal with their emotions and good social skills and given the tools to do so, so they are generally mostly relaxed and self assured.

@saraclara. You sound like you were wonderful parents.

I think a lot of it does come down to personality, but it's especially difficult with girls because there does tend to be pressure to conform to particular societal expectations. And when you have two girls, they don't have a potentially less pressured boy who is allowed to get away with more to compare themselves against, like your DN did. My brother was generally very good and quiet (we all were), but he did have his moments. And I do remember saying to my mother now and then, 'But why is he allowed to do that?', 'But why haven't you told him off?'.

Nice exercise, tape yourself discreetly so you try not to think of it then play it back to yourself....as if it's a friend..could be enlightening. Had a friend who did everything by the book but her ds saw through it...I saw through it....in not wanting to be too harsh she came across as if she wasn't really bothered.

PS
I aim 4 good + bit cheeky sometimes

ScrimpshawTheSecond - absolutely. Teaching children to be respectful and kind, by modelling that behaviour and teaching them how regulate themselves emotionally, is far more important than them being ‘well behaved’. I was always very ‘good’ as a child, and it took me YEARS as an adult to learn to stand up for myself, say ‘no’ etc. It was actually quite damaging as an adult. DD is 6, confident, spirited, kind, helpful, and can be a total handful who sometimes gets into trouble at school, and that seems like a good balance! I don’t want her to be biddable, or ‘good’. She has so much energy, and when she gets into trouble it’s generally because she hasn’t had enough exercise and needs to burn off excess energy, or because she is finding the work too easy and is getting bored (she has stayed in her year group but before lockdown was doing work from the year above). So, lots of energy and easily bored, no wonder she has trouble!

When I only had one child and she was a baby, and a very noisy one at that, a colleague with older kids told me that, whilst it's easy to dream of placid kids when they're young, the kids who're full of life, who makes noises and voice opinions, are the ones you want when they're older

I have to say, it’s interesting how often strangers think DD is a boy. At soft play when she was one of the ones on the bigger slides etc parents of boys would generally assume she was a boy, and talk about how they enjoy being boisterous etc. Now she’s outgrown that and we go to the playground instead, I’ve noticed that when she is being particularly active or daring on the equipment people often assume she’s a boy. The shortish hair and gender neutral clothes will be part of that, but I wonder how much is an assumption that that kind of behaviour is more acceptable in boys, as suggested by the OP?

I wonder how much is an assumption that that kind of behaviour is more acceptable in boys, as suggested by the OP?

One of DS's "best friends" (to the extent they have them at 2) is a girl. She's a real live-wire (even more than him). People frequently comment on it to her mum and not always in a good way.

A family member liked the idea of her child being extra confident and out going and loved the fact he was “funny and cheeky”. In all honesty he was a bloody nightmare. Every family event was about him running around and being a little sod, spoiling it and it was difficult getting my own children, similar age, to behave when they saw him getting away with misbehaving. His friends when he was young were mainly her friends kids and I don’t know how much they wanted to be friends with him. As he got older he had less friends. It’s fun when their little, but if you can’t control them at 2 it’s going to be a nightmare when their 16.

Yes

I have not rtft but I can’t believe you are discussing this topic based on your toddler. Do you have other kids? He is very young for this level of debate surely?

Sadly there are people who are quiet and rather dull. Often they are born like it not sure it’s the parents fault and if they had been less strict the person would be a charismatic amusing life and soul of the party!

Dh lovely late granny would tear her hair out with worry about fil who is possibly the dullest most negative man I’ve ever met but it wasn’t due to them.

You do definitely get those people with no personality.

I have not rtft but I can’t believe you are discussing this topic based on your toddler. Do you have other kids? He is very young for this level of debate surely?

We went for a walk in the woods the other day with a friend who has a child roughly the same age. While I was running after DS the whole time, trying to fish him out of streams and stop him getting trampled by bicycles, her DD preferred to sit quietly in the buggy most of the time and, when she did walk, stayed next to her mum. DS ended the walk soaked and filthy and I had to change him in the car park.

Clearly the walk was a much nicer experience for my friend than for me. She didn't have to chase after her child at all. Her DD never runs around in music classes and is perfectly behaved in cafes. I remember saying to her, "How did you get so lucky?" She's not a demonstrably stricter parent than me, we both put in place the same sort of boundaries and parent in a similar way but I have to actively parent a lot more than her. She smiled, but then said that they'd been trying to encourage her DD to be more confident and active as they were worried that she's too quiet.

So it's not that I think DS has problems at the moment (although there's some things that we can work out). It's more that this got me thinking about whether I would 'swap' my DS for her DD if I could, i.e. if I'd prefer to have the well-behaved child who never causes any trouble (like I was when I was small). People would praise me for having a good child and my life would be ten times easier. But, on balance, I think I'd prefer to keep DS, even if he is harder work.

Best thing would be to read some parenting books. The usually have great ideas (sometimes conflicting no doubt) but rather than base decisions on child rearing on the personality of one child base it on a lot of research of what is best for the child, and comparing the child to you isn't good, you can go too far the other way in your attempts to make his/her life happier.