To not necessarily want a well-behaved child?

[OneStepAheadOfTheToddler]

Ok, so the title of this thread is perhaps a little more controversial than I was intending it to be.

I was a well-behaved child. Everyone always complimented my parents on how my siblings and I behaved. We were quiet, shy, always stayed by their side, never ran away to explore and, if we ever did anything to show them up, were made to feel so guilty and ashamed about it that we never did it ever again. We hated shouting and raised voices and couldn't bear to disappoint our parents. We would never have dreamt about joining in with the naughty kids at school and weren't very good at making friends, although this is something that we've all got better at as we got older and discovered that actually we do like to enjoy ourselves after all . I was speaking to MIL the other day and she said it was exactly the same for her and her sisters; they wouldn't say boo to a goose, lived in fear of their parents' anger, didn't have much fun and had very little confidence or self-belief. In both cases, our parents could take us anywhere.

DS is not a well-behaved child. He's a sweet, funny toddler who never bites or hits. But he has ants in his pants, can't sit still for more than two minutes, loves doing naughty things for a reaction and yelling and telling off doesn't seem to have any impact. He's not afraid of anything. Whenever we go anywhere, he is off exploring in a trice. He is very sociable, loves other children and will always join in with any game that is going on. We stopped going to toddler groups for a bit since he was always the leader of the 'naughty boys' (with the occasional girl) who would run around the room in circles rather than listening to the lovely music teacher and it was too embarrassing. I have never been complimented on his behaviour and probably never will be. Though apparently he behaves much better in nursery and they're very fond of him. But I can't take him anywhere.

Now, I know there is a balance to be struck - we need to be firmer with DS whereas our parents probably went too far in the other direction. But the holy grail on here seems to be "Oh yes, I can take my children out for a 3 course meal in a Michelin-starred restaurant and they behave perfectly". Is it personality or parenting? And are parents of well-behaved children concerned that their children might struggle later on in life, as we did? If not, because your children are that perfect blend of well-behaved and confident, how have you achieved this? What tips can you give me?

It’s that blend of teaching them to respect the needs of others in society while being aware of their own needs and wants and teaching them using manners and respect is a simple way of getting others to give you what you might want.

Very firm boundaries when they are little is the only real way to do this. Expect them to behave well in public and take action if they aren’t. I remember tucking my eldest dd under my arm and marching out of a shop once when she was about 3 because she was doing something unacceptable. Probably tantruming for something. She learned quickly asking politely got a yes and demanding meant we left empty handed. I had to do this for a while for it to sink in but once it did then she was lovely to take out.

You can be well behaved but confident, assertive and social.
I think you’re making a rod for your own back and romanticising your son’s actions because he’s not the way you were.

OP, I follow “big little feelings” on Instagram and it’s really helped me understand and prepare for certain situations.

Some of it seems a bit backwards. I noticed you said if ever your son has pushed another child he is made to apologise. (Appreciate it was a throwaway comment so this may not be relevant.) The women on this page suggest you don’t force them to say sorry. They don’t learn remorse by simply being told to say a word.

I don’t personally think you’ve got a “problem” by what you’ve said, but it might be worth having a look anyway. It just brings your focus back to what your child might need as opposed to how society wants them to act in any given moment.

[quote Carpedimum]@OneStepAheadOfTheToddler - don’t beat yourself up about the responses from others with ‘perfectly behaved’ kids. I had a wild child that resisted conventional approaches to parenting & behaviour management. It bothered me at times but he’d calmed down a lot by 10 and several teachers said they’d prefer kids like him with personality than the goody two shoes types. The eye-opening bit for me is that the ‘angels’ are now rebelling quietly, drug-taking & dealing, teenage sex, alcohol abuse with a host of horrible consequences. The important thing is to raise a child who respects people and boundaries - make those clear and then let him be himself.[/quote]
Oh god what a load of tripe!
Calling children goody 2 shoes and suggesting they all end up as drug dealers is as bad as calling the OPs child a delinquent at 2

Seriously !!!

@EmpressoftheMundane. Yes, that's exactly what I mean (and which seems largely to have been ignored in the discussion on this thread in favour of bashing my parenting skills !)).

While it might be good for society as a whole if everyone is compliant and well-behaved, I see advantages to the individual (my cousin, for example) in learning how to push things but never actually cross the boundary. It can work well for them and gain them advantages denied to more well-behaved children. This is a controversial thought, though - I can see why people on this thread are uncomfortable with the idea of children who aren't 'well-behaved' in the conventional sense getting ahead in life. It undermines our ideas of justice and fairness.

I suppose it goes back to your point about never knowing if you've got the balance right - it's hard to know if you're raising a free thinker who will reap the benefits you mention (which I agree are real) or someone who will be self-centred and entitled. The problem is, there are lots more of the latter than the former. It's like how people love to say that Richard Branson and Alan Sugar left school at 16 to show how you don't have to follow conventional routes to success, but there are a lot more people who did that and are now stuck in minimum wage jobs and so I'd be wary of actively encouraging it. Being an 'unconventional' success and a rule breaker takes a lot more luck than doing things the 'right' way.

As someone who is also the mother to one toddler boy (pregnant again, but don't know sex yet) I'd also be less concerned about encouraging rule breaking and putting yourself first if I had a girl as I think society gives girls such strong messages to comply that you're unlikely to fully counteract them. Boys get very different messages and I think the changes of raising an entitled, selfish man are much higher if you go down this route. Men get enough messages telling them that they don't have to worry about other people and that 'boys will be boys', I don't think you need to actively add more.

@Hardbackwriter. I'd also be less concerned about encouraging rule breaking and putting yourself first if I had a girl as I think society gives girls such strong messages to comply that you're unlikely to fully counteract them. Boys get very different messages and I think the changes of raising an entitled, selfish man are much higher if you go down this route.

I think you're spot on with this but I must admit I find it depressing. Call it trendy nonsense, but I'd really like to raise my children (if we're lucky enough to have more) in a "gender-blind" way rather than being more permissive with one simply because she's a girl. But I guess you can't ignore the societal context.

I can really recommend the book Calm Parent, Happy Child. I think it's what you're looking for in as much as it explains how to set limits for our children without threats and fear ie letting them develop as people without allowing them run riot, and importantly develop SELF-discipline.

What we are talking about though isnt having a child of 2 who knows how to manipulate and get ahead and we all know those blaggy entitled types rarely have the respect of others.
Surely raising a small child of this age should be based around simple parental role modelling of how to sit at the table, use cutlery, say please and thank you etc
Not run into the road,near water or danger.
Terribly dull but essential stuff

Also, just out of interest for those still following this thread (thank you!), would it have made any difference if I'd posted 'DD' rather than 'DS'?

I'm sort of sorry I didn't now, because I could have predicted many of the responses on here, but I'm less sure they would have been the same if I'd been posting about a girl.

I think he sounds like a child who is curious and is starting to recognise that he is in control of the decisions he makes, which he will continue to develop as you guide him.

This document might help you to see that it's all part of his development
foundationyears.org.uk/what-to-expect-when/

I'd also recommend looking at Family Links for ideas on how to use strategies that will lead to a calmer and consistent home www.familylinks.org.uk/resources-for-parents.

I find it a bit depressing too, especially as the idea of toxic masculinity seems so far from my gorgeous sweet little boy who just shouted for me to come back into his room because he needed another 'mummy cud-cud, mummy kiss'. But I guess that's the point, there are so many messages out there to try and dissuade him from being sweet, sensitive, loving, kind, thoughtful. I don't actually think 'boys will be boys' is a very empowering message and I don't think it makes boys and men happy. It certainly doesn't set them up for happy relationships. We try to be gender neutral in many things, but societal messages crowd in so early that trying to ignore them rather than counteract them isn't really viable.

There was a thread recently from a woman who said she was disappointed to be having a boy because her friends with girls all got to do lots of stuff about empowerment and being a rebel girl etc and you can't do any of that with boys. She got pretty flamed and I think she was wrong (getting to teach your daughter about strong women is quite small recompense for knowing you're sending her out into a world where sexual harassment is endemic, and also DS loves his book about suffragettes or 'suf-rets' as he calls it!) but I could see where she was coming from.

The eye-opening bit for me is that the ‘angels’ are now rebelling quietly, drug-taking & dealing, teenage sex, alcohol abuse with a host of horrible consequences

I have adult teens/20 year old and I can say I definitely agree.

Dd and Ds were the ones running around in stores and at play groups. Whilst I was being eyeballed by the other parents.
15 years later the boot is on the other foot The parents who were eyeballing me are now the ones who are having problems. (Cocaine habit, alcohol issues etc)

Sounds like a little brat. Without discipline he'll turn into a gobby teenager and a bullish adult and probably thoroughly disliked. On your head be it

I have 2 who were like the ops little boy. (One diagnosed ADHD and one getting the test for ADHD)
They grew up with few rules.

They are kind, considerate, confident and hard working.
They help out at home without me asking and I hardly noticed any big problems in the teenage years.

Just because a toddler runs around and doesn’t listen doesn’t mean they are going to head down a slippery slope
Running around is what toddlers do.
I would be more worried about the toddler who sits quietly and listens and obeys every single command.

Well, I've talked about my DC on the thread, keeping everything deliberately gender-neutral, because I wanted to focus on what is the same about the behaviour, not get sidetracked by gender-related interpretations. My active, stubborn, headstrong DC is a dd though.

On the one hand, I think this makes things easier, because of peer pressure and adult expectations. She is sociable, attuned to others' expectations and loves being praised by teachers and impressing peers, so is very well-behaved at school, keeping all the refusal to comply with requests and tantrums, for home.

On the other, when this does spill over into the realm outside the home, I think she's judged much more harshly than a boy would be. Boys are often allowed to get away with really immature and frankly shitty behaviour, whereas girls who don't conform to the 'more mature, better socialised, really caring what everybody thinks and seeking approval' stereotype, are considered weird and shunned, far more easily.

Individual, forthright, unafraid of authority (if polite) is great. Quirky is cute and attractive. Not being in control of your emotions, getting angry and having a tantrum because things didn't go your way, does not go down so well.

@lottiegarbanzo. That's very interesting about your DD. And about girls who step out of line or are 'boyish' in any way being judged more harshly. Sadly, I think that's true (and the effects of it continue far beyond school ).

One way of looking at it is that the most gender neutral thing is to encourage and enable your children to be who they are regardless of their sex, and for boys that actually includes active teaching and modelling that it's ok to not be sporty, to try hard at school, to vocalise feelings other than anger, etc. My DS is (like most toddlers?) sometimes boisterous sometimes quiet but he's already (and he's a little younger than yours) being actively encouraged to play with the other boys, to be very physical, etc. On one occasion when he wanted to sit with me and read a book at soft play rather than run around he actually got mistaken for a girl, and the person who did it was a bit scoffing when I corrected them. If your goal isn't to raise a particular personality (which I think is doomed to failure) but rather to not allow your children to be pressured into feeling they can't be themselves then actually encouraging all the most stereotypical 'boy' behaviour isn't the opposite of what was done to you as a little girl, it's just the mirror image of it.

I mean it's the classic 'leader vs bossy', 'iconoclast vs nutjob', 'passionate vs aggressive', 'determined vs obsessed', sexist crap.

I think what I find difficult is that, with a dd, the stifling conformity you describe is still there, gained through observation, responding to direction, praise and a desire to fit in. It's internalised.

Yet, the challenging, defiant, impulsive, exploratory, expressive, sometimes angry behaviour is there too - in fact made worse by the frustration caused by holding herself up to perfectionist 'girl expectations' and sometimes struggling to meet them.

The help, understanding and guidance that might be there for a boy, behaving this way more publicly and at school, is not available, because the challenging behaviour is hidden.

I think the key is to look at behaviour as a series of events, and not as a personality trait. I don't think it helps anyone to be given a label as we tend to grow into it. Try to avoid describing as "not a well behaved child" and say "he tends to do this in X situation". He may just be a bored child play group who would prefer a run outside in a park with a ball than structured sing songs.

I think as long as they have manners they will go far! In fairness I would never have let mine run around a restaurant as I think it’s just rude and they’ve always been taught to sit at table and say please and thank you. The rest is personality. My eldest boy is quite shy and reserved (17) and I e never had any trouble. The middle boy (10) is more outgoing but still not boisterous. My 9 year old daughter gives me untold grief, is very forward and has an answer to anything I say. Still had terrible tantrums now! However all three are really polite to other adults and I always get told how lovely and polite they are so must be doing something right. I used to be a bit smug as the boys were always so good when toddlers then I had third and I was the parent in supermarket with kid throwing herself around the floor screaming as I said no to a magazine or chocolate bar!! She’s so wilful lol but I think she’ll go far

OP. Perhaps your admiration for your cousin who pushes boundaries and is successful, is influencing your view of parenting your son. I would suggest that your description of him, including "wildly successful" could be applied to Boris Johnson and his ilk. How many of us would be proud to have bought up a man who behaves as he does?

But to answer your question, I think you'd have got a more sympathetic hearing here if he were a girl. Because people would have expected her to grow out of it naturally or more easily, not perceive him as a potential future problem.

So actually the real-life reaction and internet reaction I'd expect, are opposite. But that's also because I'm thinking of older children, as that's when girls will fall foul of social expectations, if they don't conform.

His behaviour sounds within the realms of normal toddler behaviour from what you've said. I always find it really odd that people on MN are so quick to blame and criticise parents. Most toddlers can be annoying at times, even those whose parents think they were absolute angels 😂. One of mine was definitely harder work than the other but obviously my parenting was similar so it isn't as simple as parenting. Some kids are just harder work. My DS who was the more difficult toddler was an absolute star at school from about 6 onwards, according to his teachers. We did have boundaries and discipline but different kids respond differently . You can't exclude their personality! We don't with adults. Many adults are annoying and loud, do we blame the parents or put it down to personality?! I was a v timid child when out and about but I didn't have a lot of boundaries at home. If your ds is still being a pain at 6+ then you might need to explore other consequences / action. School often settles them down though.

So should we respond differently to our 2 year old sons than our 2 year old daughters? Should we be less willing to tolerate antsiness and general boisterousness? I know in reality it's often the other way round (due to stereotypes of what 'good girls' should be like), but we've identified that boys are more likely to be an anti-social problem when they grow up due to their societal advantages leading to arrogant behaviour. The logical response to this would be to come down harder on them and demand more of them than girls in order to correct the imbalance since there's a greater potential for them to have a negative impact on others later on.