Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not necessarily want a well-behaved child?

634 replies

OneStepAheadOfTheToddler · 02/08/2020 09:23

Ok, so the title of this thread is perhaps a little more controversial than I was intending it to be.

I was a well-behaved child. Everyone always complimented my parents on how my siblings and I behaved. We were quiet, shy, always stayed by their side, never ran away to explore and, if we ever did anything to show them up, were made to feel so guilty and ashamed about it that we never did it ever again. We hated shouting and raised voices and couldn't bear to disappoint our parents. We would never have dreamt about joining in with the naughty kids at school and weren't very good at making friends, although this is something that we've all got better at as we got older and discovered that actually we do like to enjoy ourselves after all Grin. I was speaking to MIL the other day and she said it was exactly the same for her and her sisters; they wouldn't say boo to a goose, lived in fear of their parents' anger, didn't have much fun and had very little confidence or self-belief. In both cases, our parents could take us anywhere.

DS is not a well-behaved child. He's a sweet, funny toddler who never bites or hits. But he has ants in his pants, can't sit still for more than two minutes, loves doing naughty things for a reaction and yelling and telling off doesn't seem to have any impact. He's not afraid of anything. Whenever we go anywhere, he is off exploring in a trice. He is very sociable, loves other children and will always join in with any game that is going on. We stopped going to toddler groups for a bit since he was always the leader of the 'naughty boys' (with the occasional girl) who would run around the room in circles rather than listening to the lovely music teacher and it was too embarrassing. I have never been complimented on his behaviour and probably never will be. Though apparently he behaves much better in nursery and they're very fond of him. But I can't take him anywhere.

Now, I know there is a balance to be struck - we need to be firmer with DS whereas our parents probably went too far in the other direction. But the holy grail on here seems to be "Oh yes, I can take my children out for a 3 course meal in a Michelin-starred restaurant and they behave perfectly". Is it personality or parenting? And are parents of well-behaved children concerned that their children might struggle later on in life, as we did? If not, because your children are that perfect blend of well-behaved and confident, how have you achieved this? What tips can you give me?

OP posts:
OneStepAheadOfTheToddler · 03/08/2020 11:18

I agree with everything that pp have said about children needing to learn not to be irritating to others. We're working on DS at the moment, but hopefully by the time he's reception age he will realise that he needs to sit quietly, listen to the teacher and other authority figures, do as he's told without arguing and get along with others. Also that he needs to have some basic manners at home and in public situations. I'm sure I can sell it to him on the basis that 'If you're not kind, people won't want to play with you' etc. Even now, he responds quite well to, 'It's not nice to block the slide. Other children will be sad and not want to play and that won't be fun'.

But that's the entry level stuff. I agree you have to meet this minimum standard so your child is not actively shunned. But there's then the question of how 'kind', 'helpful' and 'thoughtful' a child is. And this is where it gets a bit trickier. Because 'kind', 'helpful' and 'thoughtful' children are often taken advantage of by others, including teachers, because they're an easier target than less 'well-behaved' children.

So you are all right when you say it is a balance. I'd like my child to respect his teacher and classmates and not be a little devil at home, but I'd prefer that the teacher looks elsewhere when they're picking library monitors and 'minders' and the other dud roles given to good and helpful children.

OP posts:
VickyEadieofThigh · 03/08/2020 12:19

DS is not a well-behaved child. He's a sweet, funny toddler who never bites or hits. But he has ants in his pants, can't sit still for more than two minutes, loves doing naughty things for a reaction and yelling and telling off doesn't seem to have any impact. He's not afraid of anything.

I taught a fair few of these in my secondary teaching career. I also saw some when they were younger, in a role I had with a large education authority which involved visiting schools.

Some of them were permanently excluded from school...

CatandtheFiddle · 03/08/2020 12:25

But there's then the question of how 'kind', 'helpful' and 'thoughtful' a child is. And this is where it gets a bit trickier. Because 'kind', 'helpful' and 'thoughtful' children are often taken advantage of by others, including teachers, because they're an easier target than less 'well-behaved' children.

You really have a hang up about your own experience, OP - I suggested way up thread that you might benefit from some counselling about this, because it seems to be skewing your thinking about raising your DS. Every time you post, this becomes clear.

In addition, YABU to post in AIBU and then reject any advice that doesn't agree with you.

Sometimes, it can be useful to sit with that rejection of what you don't want to hear, and work out why you're rejecting it. This is not the same as accepting advice that runs counter to your feelings, but using such advice to help you clarify the emotional "logic" of your feelings.

To try to work out why you feel so strongly about not raising a "good" child, but still wanted to post in the most robust bit of MN to gather other people's views.

There's something going on there with you that it might be useful to sort out.

You think in such either/or terms.

And you seem set to raise a boy who'll potentially become quite an arrogant young man. I think you might need to remember that whatever you as a parent say about kindness etc, the toxic end of masculinity will always send boys & men quite different messages. I doubt he'll be in much danger of becoming the "good" child that you were. As you yourself point out, that is a sex-based stereotype.

OneStepAheadOfTheToddler · 03/08/2020 12:27

@VickyEadieofThigh. It's nice to know that you think all unruly 2 year olds who run around in music class will turn into juvenile delinquents Hmm. Shall I call SS to come collect him today? Or is euthanasia the best option?

OP posts:
OneStepAheadOfTheToddler · 03/08/2020 12:36

In addition, YABU to post in AIBU and then reject any advice that doesn't agree with you.

I agree with a lot of the advice that I've been given. Especially about not letting children grow up to irritate others and children needing to 'fit in' and follow the rules to get on in life and make friends. But the posters who I disagree with seem to have a real issue about it.

Yes, I see things from my own perspective which is coloured by my own experiences, but don't we all? I've taken on board what everyone's said about not allowing my own experiences growing up to mean that I raise a juvenile delinquent and I recognise that there's maybe some work to be done there. Unlike some posters on here, I don't think I'm perfect. In fact, I'm probably wrong in a lot of what I think. Thus, I'm willing to adjust my thinking and enjoy hearing others' (non-abusive) perspectives on this. Less fond of the abuse as opposed to the civilised contributions, but heigh-ho that's life.

OP posts:
xolotltezcatlopoca · 03/08/2020 12:54

Haha, my then 2 years old dc used to run around in circles rather than joining in at Jo Jingles music class. His yr3 teacher said he was a good role model for other children because of his good behaviour and attitude towards learning. Don't worry, OP.

Quackersandcheese3 · 03/08/2020 13:13

My kids are well behaved and I wouldn’t want it any other way.
I think in nursery the context isn’t the same as it is at home and they staff will have seen a huge range of behaviours.

VickyEadieofThigh · 03/08/2020 13:13

[quote OneStepAheadOfTheToddler]@VickyEadieofThigh. It's nice to know that you think all unruly 2 year olds who run around in music class will turn into juvenile delinquents Hmm. Shall I call SS to come collect him today? Or is euthanasia the best option?[/quote]
You seem not to know the difference between the words 'some' and 'all'.

lottiegarbanzo · 03/08/2020 13:20

Yeaahh, you can achieve a certain amount with 'be kind, or people won't want to play with you' but actually, not that much. I've done a fair bit of that and, with an angry or frustrated child, it just sounds like a threat, or a put-down.

Children, even the most empathetic-seeming, sensitive ones, are massive ego-maniacs. They're often seeing themselves in the situations the appear to be empathising with, rather than actually caring about the fictional character, or other person.

Children, like adults, would almost all agree that bullying is wrong and will be quick to tell you when other people are being bullies, or unkind. They are the heroes of their own story though, so find it very, very hard to identify objectively when their own behaviour is unkind or bullying. To them, it's always because something external was unfair and they were reacting to that.

They are not perfectly rational and, in the midst of a strop or a tantrum, completely impermeable to reason.

Also, like all of us, they believe the evidence of their own experience. Unless a playdate has actually been cut short because of their behaviour, or a friend told them they're not their friend any more for this reason, they won't believe you.

I've told my DC there are things we haven't been able to do, invitations I've declined, more often things never planned or considered, because I knew it would all go wrong, behaviourally, and be unpleasant for the us and other people (e.g. terrible loser, so meeting to play board games just wouldn't have been fun). Examples are demanded. Of course it's hard to remember specific examples of things we didn't do! It is essential to be able to illustrate the point though. And actually, you do need examples of times it did go wrong, otherwise it's just about your belief (and they'll say 'I can behave well if I want to, I would have been fine'), not their behaviour. You need to be able to say 'you said you'd behave well that time but you didn't, so and so was upset / you damaged X, and we had a to leave'. Then... move on to discuss the tactics they're going to use to avoid that happening again.

You need your child to be able to talk to you about friendships, relatioships, other people. If you say 'other people won't want to play with you' and always make it sound like your child is the problem, they won't talk to you about the times other DC were unkind to them, because they won't expect to be believed, since they think you've cast them as 'bad, antisocial child'.

I find that rational explanations at calm times do sink in and are believed. They can then influence behaviour in the moment. But, often in the moment, the feelings experienced are too powerful for rationality or memory to come into play.

So you have to have straightforward commands and consequences too.

StyleandBeautyfail · 03/08/2020 13:30

@CatandtheFiddle

But there's then the question of how 'kind', 'helpful' and 'thoughtful' a child is. And this is where it gets a bit trickier. Because 'kind', 'helpful' and 'thoughtful' children are often taken advantage of by others, including teachers, because they're an easier target than less 'well-behaved' children.

You really have a hang up about your own experience, OP - I suggested way up thread that you might benefit from some counselling about this, because it seems to be skewing your thinking about raising your DS. Every time you post, this becomes clear.

In addition, YABU to post in AIBU and then reject any advice that doesn't agree with you.

Sometimes, it can be useful to sit with that rejection of what you don't want to hear, and work out why you're rejecting it. This is not the same as accepting advice that runs counter to your feelings, but using such advice to help you clarify the emotional "logic" of your feelings.

To try to work out why you feel so strongly about not raising a "good" child, but still wanted to post in the most robust bit of MN to gather other people's views.

There's something going on there with you that it might be useful to sort out.

You think in such either/or terms.

And you seem set to raise a boy who'll potentially become quite an arrogant young man. I think you might need to remember that whatever you as a parent say about kindness etc, the toxic end of masculinity will always send boys & men quite different messages. I doubt he'll be in much danger of becoming the "good" child that you were. As you yourself point out, that is a sex-based stereotype.

Totally agree with this. Also you seem to verbally reject your parents approach but then default to it. Your son irritating others, telling him others wont play with him. Its external validation again. Set basic rules without long waffly explanations. Mine were Sitting down to eat, table manners,brushing teeth, bedtime is bedtime, no hitting, holding my hand near the road,listening.

It was presented as a no negotiation expectation, no bribing or pleading and absolutely no yelling or shouting
I really think you should explore counselling OP.

OneStepAheadOfTheToddler · 03/08/2020 13:30

@lottiegarbanzo. That's a really interesting perspective. I think you're definitely right about children being ego-maniacs and seeing themselves as the centre of everything (both positive and negative).

Also, what about the children who do nothing wrong and yet other children still don't want to play with them? The "you need to be good and then other children will like you" narrative is so unfair for them Sad!

OP posts:
lottiegarbanzo · 03/08/2020 14:02

I was focusing a bit on the negatives there. Positives are much more productive motivators, generally.

You also need examples of when things went wee. 'Remember how nicely you behaved when.. and we all had a great time! Can we behave the same way this time?'

My main point is really just that a lot of the basic good manners, sharing, turn-taking, listening to adults stuff, is learnt by repetition and positive reinforcement and by fitting in and doing the same as others. It's not about rational explanation. You can offer that too but really, it's all about forming good habits. The point of habits is that, once you have them, you don't have to think about them, it's automatic.

Failing teach a child the basic good habits that allow them to fit in with society is unkind. Sometimes, often, the teaching process is time-consuming, boring, repetitive and frustrating. That's just life with small DC.

With the DC who don't have friends, as with the ones who do but risk losing them, I think it's all about tactics. Learning simple but effective behaviours that are likely to help them achieve what they want.

Also, that gets you away from a deterministic 'you are like this', or 'this is the sort of person I expect you to be', to a practical, externally-focussed, step by step, try it and see 'have you tried this?', 'How did that work?'. Then you keep the tools and tactics that work for you.

It's all about what you do, not who you are.

I do believe, looking at a lot of people, their patterns of behaviour, its effects and the way they view themselves, others and the world as a result, that it's an approach that would make a big difference for a lot of people, who have trapped themselves in a deterministic hell.

lottiegarbanzo · 03/08/2020 14:03

'went well' that was, in the second line!

CatandtheFiddle · 03/08/2020 15:12

Also, that gets you away from a deterministic 'you are like this', or 'this is the sort of person I expect you to be', to a practical, externally-focussed, step by step, try it and see 'have you tried this?', 'How did that work?'. Then you keep the tools and tactics that work for you

Wow, @lottiegarbanzo a thousand thanks for that simple statement. Gosh, that's something we can all learn, think about, and try to implement for ourselves, as well as our children.

Such a simple switch. Thank you

OneStepAheadOfTheToddler · 03/08/2020 15:23

Yes, I'm going to try this going forward.

OP posts:
mynameisbiggles · 03/08/2020 18:03

Sounds like a little brat. Without discipline he'll turn into a gobby teenager and a bullish adult and probably thoroughly disliked. On your head be it.

SeaLover · 03/08/2020 18:04

I will admit that this is very lazy .... but I haven’t read everyone’s responses as it’s 18 pages 🤭

But I wanted to stick my two cents in!!
I was also a well behaved child, never real did anything wrong and am now really struggle to break any kind of rules, so bit of a rule follower. My parents weren’t overly strict - I just turned out this way. However - it was hammered in by parents, family members, family friends how ‘painfully’ shy I was, and at the time this only made the shyness worse. (My DH also had a similar experience, whereas his outgoing brother gets nothing but loud outright praise for being a rule breaker, confident, charmer etc... )

I now have a 3 and a half year old, who is well behaved but then she is also bossy, head strong and stubborn and as much as I am proud of her responding well when I need her to - I am not going to push those other traits out of her (and when she is shy in a situation I get defensive if people call her out because of my childhood)
I’m really envious of the person she is becoming.

My nephew is 10 and he is loud, busy, makes funny noises (he has adhd and ASD) and his parents get embarassed/frustrated etc. I try really hard to stay mostly positive towards him Because I don’t want him to feel shit about who he is (like I did as a child).

I think as I have seen some others say - that balance is key.
There is a place for everyone in the world - the human race wouldn’t work if we all sat quietly in posh restaurants, if there were only introverts, if there were only people who strictly followed the rules etc ....
You need to find boundaries and strategies that work for you, and decide which behaviour pushes over into being unreasonable, and which is just his wonderful personality, and not worry about anything else!

🙃

Carpedimum · 03/08/2020 18:20

@OneStepAheadOfTheToddler - don’t beat yourself up about the responses from others with ‘perfectly behaved’ kids. I had a wild child that resisted conventional approaches to parenting & behaviour management. It bothered me at times but he’d calmed down a lot by 10 and several teachers said they’d prefer kids like him with personality than the goody two shoes types. The eye-opening bit for me is that the ‘angels’ are now rebelling quietly, drug-taking & dealing, teenage sex, alcohol abuse with a host of horrible consequences. The important thing is to raise a child who respects people and boundaries - make those clear and then let him be himself.

Alwaystired90 · 03/08/2020 18:32

I have a well behaved child because I’ve brought him up well - not because I’ve put the fear of god in him. There’s a balance.

jannier · 03/08/2020 18:34

If you have to stop going places becouse of behaviour your not doing him a favour, places to have fun run around etc and boundaries that make your lo a friend not a pain.

Madamum18 · 03/08/2020 18:36

Its not one or the other. Its learning that sometimes certain behaviours have too much of an impact on others in a negative way etc etc and it is parents who teach kids how to judge when and which behaviours!!

OneStepAheadOfTheToddler · 03/08/2020 18:57

@mynameisbiggles Sounds like a little brat. Without discipline he'll turn into a gobby teenager and a bullish adult and probably thoroughly disliked. On your head be it.

Do you have children?

OP posts:
jwpetal · 03/08/2020 18:58

Some of it is the child's personality and also the parents attitude toward it. I have found the children that are like this as toddlers are also like this at school and it is quite difficult to instil kindness, compassion and other characteristics of being a leader. My children are more compliant, but I also let them take risks. I am trying to teach them that there is a time and place for everything. You have to find your balance also and not rest on your laurels - either way. Children have a funny way of teaching us lessons.

Milkcowsgomoo · 03/08/2020 19:05

Gosh I bet you are sorry you asked now aren’t you? I find some of these replies mean and uncalled for! I think its ok for us to call our own kids pains, naughty etc but definitely not other people’s!

Anyway, I have a 12 year old daughter. She was probably deemed a pain in her early years - wouldn’t sit still, always getting into things she shouldn’t, always in trouble at school and no amount of telling off or thinking step would change that!

18 months ago she was diagnosed with Aspergers! Our daughter has now grown out a number of these things - she’s still flighty, she knows her own mind, she’s funny, she’s loyal, she’s fiercely independent and still won’t be told!

I’m not for one minute saying your child is on the spectrum, all I’m saying is your child will grow out of it. It is hard work when they are like that but it won’t last forever.

Please ignore the horrible comments.

EmpressoftheMundane · 03/08/2020 19:17

It’s an interesting one. It’s good for society in general for your child to be well behaved. On the other hand your son may get advantages in life if he learns to be cheeky enough to get away with a little bit more than others without pushing it too far.
I’ve seen a variant of this with cousins out in Texas. Traditionally it’s an “honour culture.” Men need to maintain an aura of manliness, it’s shaming to back down or not to stand up for yourself or women close to you. Boys are raised to be dominant, and aggressive. If your son is the most dominant, he will receive esteem and regard from his peers. Of course, if you over-shoot he may just end up a criminal. Or the internal pressure to “be a man” may really fuck him up.
Not saying you are doing this OP, just reminded me a little of another situation where there is some advantage in raising a child (a boy in each case) to toe-the-line with the rules for his personal advantage.