To not necessarily want a well-behaved child?

[OneStepAheadOfTheToddler]

Ok, so the title of this thread is perhaps a little more controversial than I was intending it to be.

I was a well-behaved child. Everyone always complimented my parents on how my siblings and I behaved. We were quiet, shy, always stayed by their side, never ran away to explore and, if we ever did anything to show them up, were made to feel so guilty and ashamed about it that we never did it ever again. We hated shouting and raised voices and couldn't bear to disappoint our parents. We would never have dreamt about joining in with the naughty kids at school and weren't very good at making friends, although this is something that we've all got better at as we got older and discovered that actually we do like to enjoy ourselves after all . I was speaking to MIL the other day and she said it was exactly the same for her and her sisters; they wouldn't say boo to a goose, lived in fear of their parents' anger, didn't have much fun and had very little confidence or self-belief. In both cases, our parents could take us anywhere.

DS is not a well-behaved child. He's a sweet, funny toddler who never bites or hits. But he has ants in his pants, can't sit still for more than two minutes, loves doing naughty things for a reaction and yelling and telling off doesn't seem to have any impact. He's not afraid of anything. Whenever we go anywhere, he is off exploring in a trice. He is very sociable, loves other children and will always join in with any game that is going on. We stopped going to toddler groups for a bit since he was always the leader of the 'naughty boys' (with the occasional girl) who would run around the room in circles rather than listening to the lovely music teacher and it was too embarrassing. I have never been complimented on his behaviour and probably never will be. Though apparently he behaves much better in nursery and they're very fond of him. But I can't take him anywhere.

Now, I know there is a balance to be struck - we need to be firmer with DS whereas our parents probably went too far in the other direction. But the holy grail on here seems to be "Oh yes, I can take my children out for a 3 course meal in a Michelin-starred restaurant and they behave perfectly". Is it personality or parenting? And are parents of well-behaved children concerned that their children might struggle later on in life, as we did? If not, because your children are that perfect blend of well-behaved and confident, how have you achieved this? What tips can you give me?

@streamlinedcaverns my son is 9.

I don’t follow him around supervising him on equipment that he’s old enough to use alone.

If he was coming down the slide and some kid jumped on it to go up it, it would 100% be that kid’s fault and his parents’ fault for not teaching him not to climb slides in a busy playground. 🤷🏻‍♀️

I’m not going to helicopter parent my child in case some dope thinks it’s fine to let his/her kid run riot with no rules or boundaries in place.

They didnt see as it was a tall slide and they were at the steps in case their child fell backwards.
They didnt expect an older child who should have known better to wait under until a smaller child got on, climb onto the slide, stand up and shout stop.
Unfotunately the smaller child hit them fast .

Oh god only on MN would the child using the slide correctly be at fault 🙄

You sound like you think he’s funny for being annoying? I can tell you that those parents/kids at toddler groups ruined it for everyone. It’s not funny, if you can’t get them ri sit/pay attention/join in then take them to the park instead.

I was a well behaved, well disciplined child and I parent similarly. I was popular, academically and professionally successful and a contributor to society. My kids run wild in the park, woods, garden but can sit and eat in a restaurant or tolerate an hour or two of adult only conversation because they have always been exposed to it with expectations of behaving properly. People always comment i their behaviour precisely because so many parents ware and like you : permissive, love blind, and (sorry for being blunt) a bit hapless.

Discipline your child appropriately: there is a balance to be struck here. If you can’t take your child anywhere, the problem is you and your parenting; not the child. You are doing him no favours here. At two, there is still time to change this dynamic.

A lot of the slides in parks here have notices on them asking parents to prevent their children climbing up the slides, sadly a great number of ignorant parents ignore it and allow their children to do as they please.

[quote OhCaptain]@streamlinedcaverns my son is 9.

I don’t follow him around supervising him on equipment that he’s old enough to use alone.

If he was coming down the slide and some kid jumped on it to go up it, it would 100% be that kid’s fault and his parents’ fault for not teaching him not to climb slides in a busy playground. 🤷🏻‍♀️

I’m not going to helicopter parent my child in case some dope thinks it’s fine to let his/her kid run riot with no rules or boundaries in place.[/quote]
Of course, but the other poster described her child going down the slide when another child was already climbing up it. That's a special kind of stupidity on the part of a parent to not intervene.

Of course, all children should know not to climb slides when other children are coming down it but they can climb them if they talk to the other children and sort it out with them - children need to learn skills like that for life.

Letting your children climb slides does not mean they don't have rules or boundaries, you make sure they have the skills needed to manage taking turns with friends or understand not to do it when others are on the slide. It's not rocket science. I hope you aren't calling me a dope, if you are then adieu.

Well no, I’m not because you already explained that you do have rules and boundaries in place...

Nope the climbing child was underneath and jumped on -absolutely deliberate in obstructing the other child.
The smaller child would not have seen them until already committed.
Its a huge slide, hence the parent being at the base of the stairs.

@SimonJT

A lot of the slides in parks here have notices on them asking parents to prevent their children climbing up the slides, sadly a great number of ignorant parents ignore it and allow their children to do as they please.

Sign went up shortly after.

@StyleandBeautyfail

Nope the climbing child was underneath and jumped on -absolutely deliberate in obstructing the other child. The smaller child would not have seen them until already committed. Its a huge slide, hence the parent being at the base of the stairs.

Then yes, in those circumstances the climber (or parents if there) were at fault.

Signs saying not to climb up must be followed, what you normally let your children do doesn't apply.

Perhaps don't let your own childhood overshadow your parenting too much. Yes learn from this experience but you are not your parents and your DS is not you. Too many people get caught up in trying to make up for or rewrite their childhood experiences through their own children.

You sound like you think he’s funny for being annoying?

Not particularly. I like it when he's sweet and kind but I could cheerfully strangle him when he's disobedient and wilful. And I don't find toddler tantrums at all funny.

Also, I don't expect anyone else to like or dote on my child. Most people find small children who don't belong to them quite irritating, especially when they're boisterous and lively. So I try to keep him out of other people's way as much as possible and stick to places where we won't irritate anyone too much.

I guess what I'm interested in is not so much the "should you make your children march in line?" but "what are the potential consequences, depending on personality type, of making them march in line?" Does marching in line necessarily increase your chances of happiness and success later on in life in an increasingly individualistic and competitive society?

For instance, I think it's true that sometimes we have to give the appearance of marching in line and this is something I will stress to DS when he is a little older...It doesn't matter whether you think a rule is 'stupid' or not, sometimes you just have to go along with it to rub along nicely with everyone else and get where you want to go.

But you don't actually have to believe in it, nor do you need to unquestioningly accept the actions of those in authority over you. For example, a lot of child abuse occurs because children are too afraid to speak out. They think they're 'bad' or 'wrong' and the abusive adult is always 'right' and that's why bad things are happening to them.

I think you’re overanalysing it to justify being a bit of a hapless parent. It’s not all or nothing you know. Impose more, appropriate boundaries and make your child pleasant for others. Allowing him to irritate others isn’t going to equip him for success or turn him into Einstein. Just parent appropriately and let him develop normally. You imposing or not imposing rules isn’t going to result in him being the new Tesla type magnate nor will it land him in prison. Like most of us he’ll be perfectly ordinary, and that’s fine.

make your child pleasant for others.

How pleasant, exactly? I agree children shouldn't be allowed to irritate others, but beyond that?

Your comments in the OP says it all. Having a child who runs around at a music group says an awful lot about your parenting - hapless - and your child - through no fault of his own, annoying. Extrapolating from that, I can only imagine the similarly permissive behaviour you demonstrate in other situations like cafes, restaurants, parks etc. Unless you are entirely cut off from mankind, that irritating child will impact on others. Sort it out.

@Goingprivate2020

So all parents whose toddlers run around in music groups are hapless (even if they appropriately discipline and remove from the group)? Note that I'm not saying I'm not a hapless parent - I've been honest here about my shortcomings. What I don't necessarily agree with is that the most important thing in life is for one's children to be "pleasant" to others (though clearly they should not be irritating).

similarly permissive behaviour you demonstrate in other situations like cafes, restaurants, parks etc

Actually, I never allow him to annoy other people. I'm firmly of the belief that most people can't stand toddlers and so remove him from any situation where he's being a pain. We don't go to restaurants and cafes and there's nothing wrong with children running and exploring in the park.

Then why are you asking us for advice if you’re all sorted?

Do what you like: your kid, your future. There are plenty of parents like you whose kids are unpopular with teachers, parents and kids - because they are ill disciplined at home they expect to rule the roost at school which of course they don’t. They take up enormous amounts of teacher time ‘breaking them in’ to the real world. Kids report this to parents. They will forever be ‘the naughty boy’ and that’s a difficult label to shake off. If you want your child to be ‘that kid’ then carry on.

a lot of child abuse occurs because children are too afraid to speak out. They think they're 'bad' or 'wrong' and the abusive adult is always 'right' and that's why bad things are happening to them.

Actually, far more often, kids do speak out and other adults dismiss it when not actively covering for the abuser and even when unable to talk for ourselves typically after repeatedly being ignored and giving up, abused kids show behavioural issues because child behaviour is often related to their inner security. I find bringing child abuse into a conversation about giving kids boundaries both a bit heartless and a real lack of understanding of child abuse - lack of boundaries is common in those who suffer child neglect and many abusers are incredibly inconsistent and volatile with maintaining boundaries.

Honestly, I'm very confused how "he misbehaves for a reaction" and being "leader of the naughty boys and occasional girl" is somehow linked to the ethical issues in unquestionably acceptance of authority. Your child is not a revolutionary against a tyrannical regime, he's also not a budding inventor/innovator who needs space (most inventions are done by groups, not lone individuals anyways), he's a 2 year old who is using misbehaviour to get attention. The latter is not going to lead to either of the former.

Personally, I don't see society getting more individualistic and competitive, I think we're more reliant than ever on our social systems and cooperation. There really isn't a way any of us can be entirely independent and survive.

My older kids used to literally march in line, when SJA Cadets was running. They've also all done hours of first aid volunteering with a strict chain of command. My older two also decided against my educational plans for ones they decided on themselves - my older started college at 15 last year in an alternative provisions programme and my daughter chose to do an in-year school transfer, neither having ever been in school before. Both of them are very good and clear about saying no, to me and their father and even to their friends. My floorboards may have been tested during lockdown, but I'm glad of that rather than them running off to do something reckless to impress their friends or piss off adults now that I can't physically stop them anymore.

Hi OP. I think it's important not to be too hard on yourself, or your son. He is still so very, very young. You sound like a great mum
Like you, my background was pretty suppressed, with the promise of smacking if we didn't behave. I look at wee ones throwing tantrums with bemusement, as my parents never would have stood for it! However, I think it's healthy and normal to express one's feelings. I sometimes have difficulty, even now, identifying how I feel, as self-expression wasn't exactly encouraged when I was growing up!
My kids are generally well-behaved, as I was fairly strict. But I've always encouraged them to talk about everything.
Go gently. You're doing just fine

Behaviour is contextual, he needs to learn it’s fine to run around and be noisy in some situations, and run off and explore. It’s not fine to be noisy and disruptive whilst other children are having music lessons, or when it becomes downright annoying to others. I think you need to begin to teach him the difference. It would be sad if he was disliked or avoided because he hadn’t learned this, especially as you say he is a sweet and loving child otherwise.

Then why are you asking us for advice if you’re all sorted?

Because I don't think this and I've actually had some helpful advice from other posters about, firstly, how much of a problem DS's behaviour is given his age and so how much I should worry about it, and secondly, the aspects of it I should focus on to improve things going forward. Because it would be nice if, eventually, I could take him anywhere. You talk about 'impose boundaries' etc. etc., but that's not very helpful. We do stern words here, we do time-outs, we remove from the situation. We could potentially 'impose boundaries' a bit more effectively if we whack DS round the head every time he steps out of line but I'm not going to start doing that, clearly . But I have found some of the more specific and constructive suggestions helpful, especially around consistency, the importance of positive reinforcement and being more selective in setting boundaries.

And I accept you disagree with this and think I'm over-analysing but I do think it is important to be clear on the boundaries of what we should expect from our children in terms of self-sacrificing behaviour so (in my case) I can give a clear message going forward. For example, should the child who gives up her turn to another child because they are pushing in line be encouraged to take it instead rather than praised for 'being the bigger person'? Should we encourage children to turn the other cheek and say 'I don't mind' when actually they do? Should children be forced to sit for ages and make polite conversation with their parents' friends when they'd rather be elsewhere? You may have no interest in these questions, but actually I do - they are quite important to me in finding the right balance in my parenting approach, which is why I have asked about them here.

a lot of child abuse occurs because children are too afraid to speak out.

I remember not speaking out at school when the boy I was sitting next to touched my leg. I wouldn't have dreamed of interrupting the class.

I’ve got a very well behaved DS who is extremely concerned about rules, getting praise, being well thought of and pleasing people.

I have a naughty DS who gives no shits and parenting him is endless work and I have not yet figured it out.

Good DS is almost entirely externally motivated. He gets his self esteem and happiness from what others think of him. I am betting he will be successful but insecure and anxious.

Naughty DS is entirely internally motivated. He only cares about what he thinks of himself and his self esteem comes entirely from his opinion of what he is doing. He will probably end up growing marijuana on a houseboat and playing the guitar at folk festivals. I have no doubt he will be the happier person (providing he can stay out of prison).

Good DS is much easier to parent day to day but I worry about his future happiness a lot more. I probably have some deep work to do on that which I haven’t got to grips with.

Naughty DS is a bloody nightmare day to day but I will wave him off happily at 18 knowing he will be absolutely fine.

@Cacacoisfarraige. But at least they can eat out in nice restaurants .