To not necessarily want a well-behaved child?

[OneStepAheadOfTheToddler]

Ok, so the title of this thread is perhaps a little more controversial than I was intending it to be.

I was a well-behaved child. Everyone always complimented my parents on how my siblings and I behaved. We were quiet, shy, always stayed by their side, never ran away to explore and, if we ever did anything to show them up, were made to feel so guilty and ashamed about it that we never did it ever again. We hated shouting and raised voices and couldn't bear to disappoint our parents. We would never have dreamt about joining in with the naughty kids at school and weren't very good at making friends, although this is something that we've all got better at as we got older and discovered that actually we do like to enjoy ourselves after all . I was speaking to MIL the other day and she said it was exactly the same for her and her sisters; they wouldn't say boo to a goose, lived in fear of their parents' anger, didn't have much fun and had very little confidence or self-belief. In both cases, our parents could take us anywhere.

DS is not a well-behaved child. He's a sweet, funny toddler who never bites or hits. But he has ants in his pants, can't sit still for more than two minutes, loves doing naughty things for a reaction and yelling and telling off doesn't seem to have any impact. He's not afraid of anything. Whenever we go anywhere, he is off exploring in a trice. He is very sociable, loves other children and will always join in with any game that is going on. We stopped going to toddler groups for a bit since he was always the leader of the 'naughty boys' (with the occasional girl) who would run around the room in circles rather than listening to the lovely music teacher and it was too embarrassing. I have never been complimented on his behaviour and probably never will be. Though apparently he behaves much better in nursery and they're very fond of him. But I can't take him anywhere.

Now, I know there is a balance to be struck - we need to be firmer with DS whereas our parents probably went too far in the other direction. But the holy grail on here seems to be "Oh yes, I can take my children out for a 3 course meal in a Michelin-starred restaurant and they behave perfectly". Is it personality or parenting? And are parents of well-behaved children concerned that their children might struggle later on in life, as we did? If not, because your children are that perfect blend of well-behaved and confident, how have you achieved this? What tips can you give me?

a lot of child abuse occurs because children are too afraid to speak out.

I remember not speaking out at school when the boy I was sitting next to touched my leg. I wouldn't have dreamed of interrupting the class.

You don't have to interrupt the class. Tell someone afterwards. I'm sorry you didn't feel able to do that and perhaps some societal expectations of women had already work off on you. However that's not a reason to let your child run wild. They could run wild and still feel unable to speak out.

I’d just be aware that the “oh isn’t it nice he’s so brave” can quite quickly become “my child is struggling at school because he doesn’t know how to respect boundaries” or “my child struggles with the big difference in culture between home and school and blows up at home after keeping to the rules all day”.

It doesn’t really do kids any favours to brush off behaviour that isn’t going to help them in the future, but it is nice that your child seems confident.

And also, as I’m sure many people have said; the two types of child aren’t “well behaved mouse” and “boisterous tearaway”. I have plenty of confident, sparky, well behaved and respectful kids in my class who love a laugh but know when enough is enough.

@year5teacher that’s the dream isn’t it. A child with quiet confidence but naturally respectful and keen to learn. I do think a lot of it is down to personality and nature though.

@Hercwasonaroll. I remember being far too embarrassed to mention it to anyone. It happened quite frequently when I was at school. I would have loved to be the girl who jumped up screaming and slapped the boy in question. She got into trouble for it, but never had to sit next to him again.

@AnneBullen obviously they may be like that in my classroom and the opposite at home but when I get them in my class I am very grateful!!

There’s certainly a balance to be struck OP, I agree with you.

I’m not saying anything particularly new or insightful here but poor parenting takes many forms. It can take the form of not enforcing boundaries and having no discipline. Or it can take the form of making your child exists only for the approval of adults (for the gratification of the parent’s ego, ultimately) - because the child’s good behaviour is a reflection on them and their excellent parenting, of course!

I was brought up with the latter kind of parenting. I was the perfectly behaved child. My parents were constantly complimented on my behaviour. How mature I was! How quiet I was! How polite and respectful and well-behaved at school!

Unsurprisingly, being raised dependent on adult approval caused a crippling lack of self-esteem, self-trust and identity so when I hit the teenage years I sought approval from others in different ways. Like smoking. Drinking. Drug taking. Dangerous, promiscuous sex. My parents weren’t complimented on my behaviour anymore. Our relationship soured. I reflected badly on them.

I haven’t got any advice for you but the one thing I promised myself was that I would try to set boundaries for my son but that I’d always let him be himself. My son’s only one so I haven’t tested that yet though!

I think I am the worst kind of parent! Both mine were taught from a very early age how to behave.I didnt give them much leeway when out of the house. I saw our kids of an extension of us. There was a lot of things I didnt do like baby food,your nuggets n fish finger jobs they had that at school but never at home,they ate what we did.I hated parent and toddler groups went once never again.My kids grew up round adults so they grew up challenged,independant and fearless.They were free to express opinions and were listened to.Where we went they went so they werent exposed a great deal to other kids.If we went out to eat they came ,if we went to the theatre they came,weekends away they came .didnt need to tell them to behave they just kind of did.Its often the enviroment the kids find themselves in.I dont know much about parenting but I do think if your happy then the kids will be happy and that often is all it takes.There doesnt seem to be any right and wrong way really I guess...Would I have done things different ? I dunno I did what I did and we are all surviving quite happily. I think just do what you feel is right for your family and thats the best any of us can do..

PS. Forgot to say your son is still very very small. And 2 isn’t exactly known for being an easy age, behaviour wise.

I also don’t think anyone gets parenting 100% right. We all just do the best we can and most kids turn out ok.

My parents weren’t complimented on my behaviour anymore. Our relationship soured. I reflected badly on them.

Yes, I think this is the thing that I'd really like DS to know. That I'm not disappointed in him (though I might be disappointed by his behaviour if it's not acceptable) even if he's not a 'favourite' with those around him. That my love for him does not depend on him being approved by others. Yes, often the reason teachers and other authority figures don't like children is because they're badly behaved, but I've also seen cases where they've taken a dislike to a child for things the child can't really change, like a mannerism or way of speech. If the child has been brought up to be dependent on adult approval, that's a very cruel situation to be in. Far better to teach them from the start that not everyone will like them and that's ok so long as they behave appropriately and are happy in themselves.

Visible Child might also appeal to you, OP. There is a nice group on FB.

I'm with you, I was raised like you were and it's taken me a long time to develop this skills I need as an adult. Such as being assertive, having self confidence and standing up for myself. You need these to be a strong adult but we teach our children not to do them.

Your DS sounds lovely Op, let him be him.

Your son is very young and sounds fairly typical for the age.

In older kids though. Well behaved doesn’t necessarily mean they are quiet, void of personality or timid. I have a 7yr old who is well behaved but very outgoing. Confident and kind is what I am aiming for with her. Hopefully 🤞

I want to know - and this is a genuine question - what people actually mean when they say 'well parent them properly' or 'be firm' or 'stop the behaviour'. What is it you want me to do? My child has adhd but can be similar to yours OP. I can tell when he is struggling and when he is being cheeky on purpose and when he is I do what I can but he doesn't care if he is shouted at, he doesn't care if he has his favourite toys taken away, he doesn't care if he has to sit on the naughty step. He will count with me if I count down. Nothing I do strikes a balance (have had this discussion with school and docs many times) and as someone who was actually abused as a child I will not hit him. What punishment can you actually give to a child who doesn't care if they are punished?!

I totally get what you are saying OP and I said something similar to my friend during the week. I was a model child, extremely well behaved, never contradicted anyone and did as I was told. This has not served me in life as I have found I have an amazing ability to put up with abuse and bad situations. Being taught to shut up and not complain when my needs were not being met did not stand me in good stead when I came across people who would play on my good nature.

I see this with my mother who thinks my "spirited" children are naughty. They can be mischievous, and they require active parenting but they aren't naughty. My eldest can be a bit of a handful as she's in full on puberty, but I'm hoping she won't take the sh!t off people that I have. What is it they say "well behaved women rarely make history"?

With additional needs it’s a completely different approach

Should children be forced to sit for ages and make polite conversation with their parents' friends when they'd rather be elsewhere?

I think so, yes. Why should their wants (not needs) trump those of the adults?

I am a natural rule-follower but I know I have a vivacious nature and I entertain people and have thrived as an adult in emotional and material/professional terms.

I had a warm loving childhood. I obviously can't remember if I had tantrums. I presume I did but I was generally well behaved because it made me happier to earn my parent's approval. It wasn't about avoiding disapproval.

I was born in the 60s. I remember not being number one in the family pecking order. Children were generally not worshipped in the same way they are now. If my mum was talking to another adult I was told "wait I'm talking" if I interrupted. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

My parents didn't take us out for dinner - back then it was like pubs: not for kids. But if we were taken out to a café or anywhere we rightly would be expected to behave and it gave us a good grounding, it wasn't crushing our spirits for goodness sake.

I agree with you that good children should ideally not be used as minders for naughtier children but I'm not sure how you square that with the fact that it may well be your child that has to be minded. I'm all for children being allowed to display their personalities but, as with adult situations, it's not always appropriate and sadly sometimes their exuberance needs curtailing. It's down to you to decide what those situations are and act accordingly with a view to preparing him for his future

Sorry for the essay!

@OneStepAheadOfTheToddler

I'd look at societal attitudes rather than your behaviour for the incident you describe. It speaks volumes she got in trouble and the boy wasn't blamed. She may have been moved away from him but her voice wasn't really heard although she spoke out.

Nowadays if hope that she would be taken more seriously. I hope any person would feel able to tell someone after an incident like that.

I'm not sure shyness or compliance is totally the issue. You can raise a compliant child that will speak up (or at least tell someone after an incident) without them being a nightmare. As many PPs have said, being well behaved yet confident are not mutually exclusive.

Additional needs aside, children benefit from consistency and boundaries. Don't stop taking him out, he'll never learn appropriate behaviour when he's out otherwise. Aim for short trips to child friendly places.

That was a shite situation OP -- but what does your experience of peer abuse have to do with kids not speaking out because they think "the abusive adult is always right" which was your argument about? You used child abuse by an adult as a reason that children need to be able to question authority, which isn't something most are disagreeing with but that there are limits. As a child abuse survivor who repeatedly spoke out, who literally had police present during events and still got no aide, I think you have to recognize the major issues with your original remark and how disturbing it can be to see someone so casually use it and then move the goal post.

Trying to get a reaction from others and lack of boundaries is often part of peer abuse. I do wonder how your tactics will change once physical restraint and removal is no longer a possible option. For me that was far more important than what other parents thought of my parents.

@StCharlotte - another genuine question - why should adults wants trump those of the children? Especially given that the adults generally made a choice to have or care for them. I'm not saying in every situation but I don't subscribe to the view that adults are automatically more important than children.

I agree with you that good children should ideally not be used as minders for naughtier children but I'm not sure how you square that with the fact that it may well be your child that has to be minded.

@StCharlotte. I think there's a lot in what you say and found your comment insightful, but on this point I've been perfectly clear. Even if my son was in need of 'minding', I would not consider it appropriate for another child to do this (especially if it made them uncomfortable). His behaviour would be a matter for us (the parents) and the teachers to sort out. I would never want that responsibility put onto an unwilling child, even if it benefited my own.

OP I don't feel like you understand the difference between teaching functional 'good' behaviour and allowing your child to express themselves and show emotion. I'm also not sure why you posted in Aibu as you very clearly don't think you are. Which is fine. But have you gone here just as a way to justify your approach?

Honestly sounds like your child is a handful and instead of discipline him or trying to control him you’ve decided to “not care”

@BiBabbles. I'm sorry to hear about your experiences...I agree that a lot of children have spoken out and been completely disregarded. But I do think that a lot don't speak out to start with because they think not rocking the boat and upsetting the adults is more important than them being heard. I know of a number of abuse victims who have been prevented from speaking out because they were told it would 'destroy the family' (as opposed to the actual abuse by the trusted adult doing that ).