To not necessarily want a well-behaved child?

[OneStepAheadOfTheToddler]

Ok, so the title of this thread is perhaps a little more controversial than I was intending it to be.

I was a well-behaved child. Everyone always complimented my parents on how my siblings and I behaved. We were quiet, shy, always stayed by their side, never ran away to explore and, if we ever did anything to show them up, were made to feel so guilty and ashamed about it that we never did it ever again. We hated shouting and raised voices and couldn't bear to disappoint our parents. We would never have dreamt about joining in with the naughty kids at school and weren't very good at making friends, although this is something that we've all got better at as we got older and discovered that actually we do like to enjoy ourselves after all . I was speaking to MIL the other day and she said it was exactly the same for her and her sisters; they wouldn't say boo to a goose, lived in fear of their parents' anger, didn't have much fun and had very little confidence or self-belief. In both cases, our parents could take us anywhere.

DS is not a well-behaved child. He's a sweet, funny toddler who never bites or hits. But he has ants in his pants, can't sit still for more than two minutes, loves doing naughty things for a reaction and yelling and telling off doesn't seem to have any impact. He's not afraid of anything. Whenever we go anywhere, he is off exploring in a trice. He is very sociable, loves other children and will always join in with any game that is going on. We stopped going to toddler groups for a bit since he was always the leader of the 'naughty boys' (with the occasional girl) who would run around the room in circles rather than listening to the lovely music teacher and it was too embarrassing. I have never been complimented on his behaviour and probably never will be. Though apparently he behaves much better in nursery and they're very fond of him. But I can't take him anywhere.

Now, I know there is a balance to be struck - we need to be firmer with DS whereas our parents probably went too far in the other direction. But the holy grail on here seems to be "Oh yes, I can take my children out for a 3 course meal in a Michelin-starred restaurant and they behave perfectly". Is it personality or parenting? And are parents of well-behaved children concerned that their children might struggle later on in life, as we did? If not, because your children are that perfect blend of well-behaved and confident, how have you achieved this? What tips can you give me?

Depends who, I imagine putting all the difficult kids together is harder, dumping a difficult kidnwith a well behaved one is harder for the well behaved kid. I do get that teachers are expected to deal with difficult kids with little support though.

Difficult kids altogether make the whole class a nightmare and very little learning happens.

Split them up and it becomes easier. Someone has to sit next to them. Doesn't need to be an overly shy/compliant student but there does need to be someone next to them as most rooms don't have spare desks.

The school thing happened with DD when she was @ 8 and it’s the only time I’ve ever been that parent. DDs teacher that year was genuinely really nice but with a couple of children with “issues” (as a pp pointed out “naughty” isn’t always fair) I think she was a little overwhelmed and she felt the need to place the “well behaved” children with them in the hope it would help.

Now it might well work sometimes as a good influence for the other child but imo it’s rarely beneficial to the child who is already naturally inclined to please the adults in her life! It made dd miserable and she felt pressured to perform better to make up for the child she’d been placed with.

Dd actually spoke to her teacher about it twice (so we were happy at least that she’d absorbed our speak up for yourself message) but was fobbed off with a bit of chat about the importance of kindness and being helpful. I did arrange to speak to the teacher and made it clear it wasn’t working for my child. And no I promise there was no fumming or losing my shit MN style . Still, if I had remained the compliant, do what you’re told, don’t make a fuss person I was raised to be, nothing would have changed and my school loving child might have ended up being the one with problems.

@OneStepAheadOfTheToddler I've meet some delightful children who were high energy as toddlers. I think as long as you are working towards engaging in activities then it's fine. High spirited children can be cute, but make sure you don't swing too much the other way. Saw a 5 or 6 year old shouting at his Mum to play with him the other day at the playground. It was vile. She went along with it, I was bowled over as his behaviour was so rude.

Children prefer to be sat next to children who aren't fidgeting, don't pinch them or pull their hair, touch them inappropriately and steal their stuff. Putting a child in a situation where that is likely to happen is not acceptable.

There's a reason girls prefer to sit next to girls at school.

And if I was told my DS had been doing any of those things to anyone in his class, I would absolutely wipe the floor with him.

There's a reason girls prefer to sit next to girls at school.

Sorry, should have prefaced this 'in some cases'. Clearly, the vast majority of boys behave perfectly well, but this does seem an (entirely separate) issue that gets shoved under the carpet a lot by schools.

I remember as a child being asked if I'd "mind" sharing a room with the difficult girl on a school trip since I was so 'good' and 'helpful'

What will you’d at to the poor child who has to share with yours? Do you want a child who others don’t want to play with or share with?

You are seeing things very black and white and going too far!

It just doesn't seem right to pass the problem of the difficult children on to other children. I'm guessing it's done because there aren't enough TAs or places in PRUs.

I always wanted a child with chutzpah, energy, confidence. I agree that it sets them up better for life than being a submissive follower. As long as they learn to be empathetic and that their behaviour has consequences.
As a teacher, there's a world of difference between the happy cheeky children, who misbehave but who bring a lot of energy and life to the class and the ones who misbehave out of anger and set themselves against you.

@BluebellsGreenbells. I think if the teachers told me that others didn't want to share with mine (and they had good reason), I'd try to correct the behaviour and ultimately would withdraw him from school trips if he couldn't be trusted to behave away from home.

What I wouldn't expect is for some poor child to be expected to do the teachers' job for them at the expense of their own mental wellbeing....That's not fair to either child! The problem would be for the parents (me) and the teachers to sort out.

It’s too late then! If kids don’t want to sit with or play with your child, for any reason, then that’s a fine deal. If they go home and say mum Bobs horrible and I hate sitting with him, or mum don’t invite Bob, he’s naughty or whatever, you’ve lost the battle. He won’t get invites. He won’t make friends.

He needs you now to set those boundaries.

It's very clear by 2/3 which children have been told "no" (with follow through) when doing something wrong, and which have then had "Oh, if you do that again, we're going...", "If you do that one more time, we'll need to go", "OK, but just once more alright?", "Come on, I asked you to stop" ad infinitum. Those are, in my experience, the same kids who scoot into oncoming traffic, refuse to listen to instructions, strop when told to do something. And why wouldn't they? That's how they've been conditioned

I was told No all the time. In fact I can’t think of anytime I was told Yes.

It wasn’t a case of me being told No multiple times as I more than likely forgot what I had been told within seconds of being told it. Most of the time if someone tells me something what I hear is like a foreign language.
Sometimes people have to repeat it 3 or 4 times before I understand what they have said.
The concentration on what people are saying involves an awful lot of intense concentration.

Being told No didn’t stop me getting punished almost daily at school and at home for all sorts of reasons.
I tried my best to not get up in class, be well behaved do exactly what I was told but always there was something that wasn’t quite right, not getting the correct amount in a test or not eating the school dinners
The amount of times I had the cane at school anyone would think I was going to go straight to prison at 16.
You would think I was some sort of out of control monster of a child
In fact I was described as quiet as a mouse in parent teacher meetings. At home I just seemed to screw up hourly.
I could never adhere to the rules as there was so many I couldn’t remember them.

I brought up mine with very few rules and boundaries.
Tbh I don’t have the mental capacity to have lists of what they could or couldn’t do.

When they were younger we had a routine for bed time

They then learned in senior school that if they wanted to stay up till midnight on a school night then they were tired when they went to bed and soon set their own bed time.

I am probably ADHD. Ds is ADHD and Dd as an adult is getting herself tested because she suspects that her ADD is really ADHD.

I am hoping my parenting, even if it wasn’t as strict as most people would have liked has paid off.
For Dd she has grown into a totally organised person who can turn her hand to a range of things and has so much confidence. She has a lot of friends.
Ds is just starting out and is following Dd into the same type of jobs where being confident is the most important factor.

He needs you now to set those boundaries.

Which I am trying to do. Hence this thread and trying to determine where the appropriate place for those boundaries is. I don't want a "problem" child who causes issues for his teacher and other children, but I'd prefer not to have the lovely, obedient child who is a "target" for being taken advantage of (including by teachers). Based on my own experiences of being that child.

@Hercwasonaroll

There will be children who have issues for whatever reason but there is always a reason for their behaviour.

If you count no boundaries at home as a reason then yes I agree. Not all behaviour is communication, sometimes the kid is just naughty!

@SnuggyBuggy Putting all the characters together is far worse. Believe me I've tried.

I don't agree, in school at least, that they are 'just naughty', at home it could be different of course but I don't see them in their homes.

No boundaries at home can be a reason, of course. It's not the child's fault so they aren't being wilfully naughty. They are probably craving boundaries.

Isnt it more about teaching children that say in a restaurant you sit and don't run around and in a park you can run and explore
Obviously going to day a restaurant for 4 hrs with a 2 year old is pushing if , so being realistic about what restaurant you go to and how long etc should be factored in
My 2 ds were not angels but they could sit and eat a meal nicely or behave in someone elses house etc for few hours , its about striking a balance surely

It just doesn't seem right to pass the problem of the difficult children on to other children.

I don't expect the other children to regulate the difficult child's behaviour. In extended experience of a range of secondary school contexts the best behaviour seating plans are boy girl with tricky characters split up.

Lots of the discussion here seems more primary based. Our students don't spend the whole day next to the same person (corona aside).

At secondary there are a minority of wilfully naughty students, usually low level and snidey. Outwardly naughty loud brash kids are more likely to have a reason. Most of them just crave boundaries.

Hence this thread and trying to determine where the appropriate place for those boundaries is

But, OP you keep batting off suggestions that your DS might be not being given those boundaries now. And you respond to any advice with some black & white thinking:

I don't want a "problem" child who causes issues for his teacher and other children, but I'd prefer not to have the lovely, obedient child who is a "target" for being taken advantage of (including by teachers)

You seem to think that your DS can't be guided into some middle way. I was a "lovely obedient" child but rarely taken advantage of. As other posters are also saying, your categories are NOT mutually exclusive.

Maybe you need to do some parenting classes or some counselling to learn that people can be "lovely" but also assertive.

The good child in this scenario does inevitably suffer though. Not blaming the teachers, I don't see how it can be helped if the difficult kids have to be kept in the classroom at all costs. I'm also not convinced it "teaches empathy" either as I've heard loads of people claim.

@Hercwasonaroll

It just doesn't seem right to pass the problem of the difficult children on to other children.

I don't expect the other children to regulate the difficult child's behaviour. In extended experience of a range of secondary school contexts the best behaviour seating plans are boy girl with tricky characters split up.

Lots of the discussion here seems more primary based. Our students don't spend the whole day next to the same person (corona aside).

At secondary there are a minority of wilfully naughty students, usually low level and snidey. Outwardly naughty loud brash kids are more likely to have a reason. Most of them just crave boundaries.

I can imagine, having experienced it myself at secondary, that there are snidey individuals who I'd describe as wilful. I'd tend to do boy-girl seating at primary given that friendship groups at primary are nearly exclusively all male or all female.

You seem to think that your DS can't be guided into some middle way. I was a "lovely obedient" child but rarely taken advantage of. As other posters are also saying, your categories are NOT mutually exclusive.

I haven't argued that they are.

This thread has been quite therapeutic!

I've certainly seen some of my childhood in here and where perhaps I've held ds to high standards.

Thing is ds and I are both very passive and quite introverted. What I found was my very quiet and well behaved da was jumped on for any sort of behaviour beyond perfect. Mostly my parents if difficult kids who seemed to want to point out my ds wasn't perfect. I never thought he was or said he was. But my bests friends children were the polar opposite and I think she felt pressure.
He eldest once said she wished she could be as good as ds. I replied "well you can. You just have to stop and think when told no about why or how you'll try and negotiate rather than yelling and screaming because it's not the answer you wanted"

But friend was complete opposite in that she never told her kids off and no didn't mean no and I think that's because she decided it was easier to find excuses for the behaviour than have 2 kids throwing temper tantrums (which they did frequently).

So I do believe personality is a major part but as parents we have to be calm and consistent and help our kids find the right balance between being too quiet and being a PItA and domineering but also making sure that it's always in the realms of their comfort zone. It's very damaging to MH to try and be someone or something you are not.

I think between 2 and 3 it's a case of picking your battles and avoiding things they can't cope with and trying again later.

I think you should just decide which things matter to you and enforce them consistently every time. For example don't allow him to throw food. For every thing else, ignore the behaviour and don't micro manage him. For example if he's playing noisily with cars that's not really bad behaviour so let it go. You need him to know what the rules are and stick to them. That doesn't mean the rules have to be super strict. You can have very firm boundaries on certain issues whilst allowing complete freedom with other things.
But it also sounds like he wants to run around with other boys which is great - exercise and socialising is surely to be encouraged, so take him somewhere that he can do that. I really don't get why you persist with a music class that he doesn't enjoy! Are you going for your own benefit?

Someone said upthread often quite people with few words are strongest.

I'm quite quiet but chatty in my social groups. I don't force myself to centre stage and like to try and see things from all viewpoints. I always thought I was a nothing, it noticed, not particularly liked but no disliked person.
Recently we had a issue at work and we wanted union involved. Then meeting was called with managers and the wanted a spokesperson for the team.
3/4 of the team all suddenly voted me. I was and also . It reminded me the loud people get attention because they are loud. But it's not always a true reflection of people feelings towards you.

Since then my self confidence has risen. And I think self confidence and worth is such an important thing to instil in people.

@OhCaptain

And yes unless they know the unique child and appreciate how original they are most kids at the top arent going to want to wait for them to express themself climbing a slide.

😂😂😂

Theres always one of these parents around 😂 Sadly in our local park a child going down collided with the special one climbing up and broke both his legs. Idiot parents. Its annoying, dangerous and antisocial.