To not necessarily want a well-behaved child?

[OneStepAheadOfTheToddler]

Ok, so the title of this thread is perhaps a little more controversial than I was intending it to be.

I was a well-behaved child. Everyone always complimented my parents on how my siblings and I behaved. We were quiet, shy, always stayed by their side, never ran away to explore and, if we ever did anything to show them up, were made to feel so guilty and ashamed about it that we never did it ever again. We hated shouting and raised voices and couldn't bear to disappoint our parents. We would never have dreamt about joining in with the naughty kids at school and weren't very good at making friends, although this is something that we've all got better at as we got older and discovered that actually we do like to enjoy ourselves after all . I was speaking to MIL the other day and she said it was exactly the same for her and her sisters; they wouldn't say boo to a goose, lived in fear of their parents' anger, didn't have much fun and had very little confidence or self-belief. In both cases, our parents could take us anywhere.

DS is not a well-behaved child. He's a sweet, funny toddler who never bites or hits. But he has ants in his pants, can't sit still for more than two minutes, loves doing naughty things for a reaction and yelling and telling off doesn't seem to have any impact. He's not afraid of anything. Whenever we go anywhere, he is off exploring in a trice. He is very sociable, loves other children and will always join in with any game that is going on. We stopped going to toddler groups for a bit since he was always the leader of the 'naughty boys' (with the occasional girl) who would run around the room in circles rather than listening to the lovely music teacher and it was too embarrassing. I have never been complimented on his behaviour and probably never will be. Though apparently he behaves much better in nursery and they're very fond of him. But I can't take him anywhere.

Now, I know there is a balance to be struck - we need to be firmer with DS whereas our parents probably went too far in the other direction. But the holy grail on here seems to be "Oh yes, I can take my children out for a 3 course meal in a Michelin-starred restaurant and they behave perfectly". Is it personality or parenting? And are parents of well-behaved children concerned that their children might struggle later on in life, as we did? If not, because your children are that perfect blend of well-behaved and confident, how have you achieved this? What tips can you give me?

I’m not offended.

The people posting here are parents in the real world, too so how does it not apply to posters here?

You made a sweeping statement that basically said people only have well behaved kids to reflect their good parenting.

I said they don’t.

Generally speaking people have well behaved kids because we want them as decent, functioning members of society who will grow up with a good moral code. As is evidenced by this thread.

you need to look quite carefully at what is toddler behaviour, and what you're letting go past because "boys will be boys" - that sort of thinking about boys' behaviour seems to me to lead to all the angsty posts in here about men who really are so selfish that they become impossible to live with.

Conversely, one of the harmful messages we give to girls is that they have to be good and conform. If I'm lucky enough to have a daughter, I will try to teach her that she is NOT held to a higher standard of behaviour and she doesn't have to put anyone else's feelings, male or female, ahead of her own in the choices she makes in life.

Actually, one of the sad things is that I think DS's behaviour would be frowned on much more if he were a girl. We know a little girl very like him and, whereas most people tend to view DS as somewhat boisterous but pleasant and likeable (his nursery's description), this little girl is viewed as downright naughty and difficult even by her own mother.

.I think often we aspire for our children to be well-behaved because it reflects well on us as parents.

I'm a parent of older kids but I aspire for my kids to be well behaved so they can get on with people outside the family who aren't going to tolerate as much shit as we do. Not being able to make long lasting friendships and relationships is a recipe for unhappiness and loneliness.
Plus I obviously don't want a child who has police involvement. Going to prison will reduce their opportunities in life.
If you don't instill good boundaries in your child you risk them going off the rails.
Well behaved doesn't meant always well behaved. Lovely children have bad days or can do naughty things but they are still good on balance. I would argue that making mistakes makes children more good if they remember those occasions and deal with other people's mistakes fairly too.

I don't want a well behaved, compliant child. Why would you, except for convenience? I want a headstrong, independent, energetic child who stands up for themselves and what they believe and want. This may be because I have a DD though, honestly, and I don't want to socialise her into becoming convenient and compliant.

I agree with you OP.
I had a similar upbringing to you, although there were lots of us and our parents kept us in line with smacking and threats.

I always promised the children I would have that I would follow a different path.

Yes I ensure they are safe and don’t annoy other people but I encourage them to explore, ask questions, socialise and sometimes they get over excited or maybe a bit too loud, but they are confident, interesting children. I don’t constantly tell them off, I give them the freedom to be themselves and for us as a family it works.

Interesting and brave post OP x

I think girls are held to these standards even more - schools place well behaved girls next to more spirited boys all the time...

Good debate!

I think girls are held to these standards even more - schools place well behaved girls next to more spirited boys all the time...

Yes, and I think this is really unacceptable. I would prefer that any daughter I had was the 'spirited' one giving the teachers trouble than being used to 'civilise' naughty boys into compliance.

I want my child to be well-behaved in order to have a successful school and social life. So as to become an independent, happy person.

It's almost the opposite of reflecting well on me. It's about giving them the ability to get away from me.

Well-behaved children, with emotional regulation and awareness of others' feelings, make good friends and get invited back. This makes them happy.

Self-discipline follows from externally-inculcated discipline and allows a child a chance of success and enjoyment at school and in whatever endeavours interest them.

The child who thinks the world does or should revolve around them, their wants and their moods, becomes a miserable child.

I think that kids with personality are great, but when that personality is disruptive, then that’s not so great. Having a personality doesn’t mean they can’t sit in a restaurant and behave.

This ^^

Too many parents think having a personality is an excuse for behaving like a twat. Once in secondary school the personality wears incredibly thin and it is clear boundaries need to be applied.

Children develop at different rates. Behaviour is often to do with social skill development. I personally think in UK we are a bit restrictive on our children but boundaries are important to keep everyone safe including your child.

Notice on the continent, restaurants are often family affairs with children playing in a corner. It's not right to expect children to conform to our social etiquette rules and inappropriate to take young children to posh restaurants.

I'd join in play with child at toddler groups to encourage good social skills. He needs those kids to learn, grow, develop.

It is possible to be quiet, introspective and strong.

Don't mistake loud raucous behaviour for strength. Just becuase a child or an adult is noisy, gregarious and brash does not mean they are strong.
It means they are loud and energetic.

Often the strongest people say the fewest words.
They are often the ones who are listened to because they are not firing off like popcorn every second.

My dc was the one running around in toddler groups while others all joined in to listen to story etc. Nursery was ok, since he could do whatever he wanted most of the time. Ks1, he was not badly behaved but become chatterbox and often told off. By ks2, something changed and always told he was well behaved and gets on with work by teachers.
Though he has always been kind of a nightmare at home. He talks constantly and can't sit still more than 5 minutes.

OP, I'm with you on this. I was very well-behaved because my father's anger was too much to deal with. As a result, I got a real pleasure from seeing DC being confident and independent enough to be a bit mischievous or speaking their mind. They weren't allowed to hurt or bully others but I didn't care if they refused to wear their coat, said they didn't like their dinner etc.

FWIW, they got through toddler years with three tantrums in total between them and they have been the most chilled, affectionate teenagers I've ever seen.

I've always been very strict on the slide thing - they had their own at home they could climb up to their heart's content, and in the park if it was empty - but any other time... nopes. I hate it when kids go up, and then slide down, then immediately start going back up again blocking it for everyone.

It is possible to be quiet, introspective and strong. DD2 is like this to a tee. DD1 is just a stream of words... words... words.

I have never been complimented on his behaviour and probably never will be. Though apparently he behaves much better in nursery and they're very fond of him. I hope the latter is true. I have taught many children who are funny and full of personality, but also polite, respectful and listen well to instructions. This is the ideal to which we should aspire (IMO.) We all need a bit of discipline, not just for parents’ sake, but to enable us to become decent citizens. If you can manage to I still confidence, good discipline, kindness and a sense of humour, then you’ve won at parenting and your child will win at life.

Disobedient DCs are the same as disobedient dogs - a pita for everyone else in the vicinity.

Full disclosure: I don't have any children, my son hasn't actually been born yet, but I definitely want to be like you and stress more about my child'd emotional development than his behaviour.
I think you are definitely right to be more laid back about it and to value your child's feelings over how they reflect on you (I think this is the crux of it, that over-concern about children being "well behaved" treats puts too much emphasis on valuing them as an extension of/accomplishment/source of praise for the parents rather than as people in their own right).

"Emotional development" v "behaviour" is a false dichotomy (as is "child's feelings" v "reflecting on parent"). Once you have a child at 2 or 3 who does something wildly inappropriate and then screams / howls for 10 minutes because you've asked him to stop and he won't, you might find that you're not winning prizes on emotional development or behaviour. Without boundaries you may be carefully nurturing a badly-behaved emotional wreck.

It's very clear by 2/3 which children have been told "no" (with follow through) when doing something wrong, and which have then had "Oh, if you do that again, we're going...", "If you do that one more time, we'll need to go", "OK, but just once more alright?", "Come on, I asked you to stop" ad infinitum. Those are, in my experience, the same kids who scoot into oncoming traffic, refuse to listen to instructions, strop when told to do something. And why wouldn't they? That's how they've been conditioned.

Agree with you OP. I am a teacher too! No problem with children with a bit of personality, just need to managed correctly and know when it is appropriate. He is not even three yet, still learning how to behave.

I completely identify with your upbringing and although I know my parents meant well, I do think my need to conform and not be a bother has held me back as adult.

@lottiegarbanzo

I want my child to be well-behaved in order to have a successful school and social life. So as to become an independent, happy person.

It's almost the opposite of reflecting well on me. It's about giving them the ability to get away from me.

Well-behaved children, with emotional regulation and awareness of others' feelings, make good friends and get invited back. This makes them happy.

Self-discipline follows from externally-inculcated discipline and allows a child a chance of success and enjoyment at school and in whatever endeavours interest them.

The child who thinks the world does or should revolve around them, their wants and their moods, becomes a miserable child.

Exactly. Something to bear in mind, I think, is that as children get older and more independent, you do need to be able to trust them to behave like sensible, respectful members of society.

Also nothing wrong with being quiet either, we are all different.

I think you are definitely right to be more laid back about it and to value your child's feelings over how they reflect on you

Age 2-3 is all about children learning how to deal with their strong feelings and moving towards being able to say "I'm disappointed" "I'm jealous" "I'm angry" rather than having tantrums, throwing things and being destructive. If parents don't put the effort in the child ends up being labelled negatively by their peers who will have more emotional intelligence than a child who is allowed to do whatever. ( I'm not saying that 3-4 year olds don't misbehave but they should have more emotional intelligence than when they were 1 or 2.

she doesn't have to put anyone else's feelings, male or female, ahead of her own in the choices she makes in life.

There is a balance, OP. All your posts tend to have a very black or white approach. You seem to be OK with your DS behaving as if other's choices are not important - but at some point all of us have to learn to compromise. When & how will you teach your DS that other people have feelings too, and that throughout our lives we need to understand & respect this, and balance our needs with those of others?

You seem to think it's one thing - meek, self-abnegation - or another - naughty and with personality.

Don't let his life be a continuing repeat of "we had to stop going to playgroup"

IMHO your son is still a toddler and it's fine if he crashes around like one.

I'd reassess naughtiness until he's around 6. Then there needs to be at least an aspect of 'playing the game' and playing that all-important social aspect of life.

The most successful people tend to be the best socially, not academically. If you please people, you tend to win.

Also, don't put your kid in situations that aren't age appropriate.

Do you really expect a toddler to behave whilst wandering around the Trafford Centre? Or at a wedding? These are adult activities.

Self-discipline follows from externally-inculcated discipline and allows a child a chance of success and enjoyment at school and in whatever endeavours interest them.

The child who thinks the world does or should revolve around them, their wants and their moods, becomes a miserable child.

@lottiegarbanzo that is such a brilliant post - you sum up my approach & hopes.