Pornhub profit from trafficking of women and girls.

[SmileEachDay]

I’m increasingly frustrated with attitudes to porn on MN - there seem to be 2 main ways people justify it:

1. The liberal feminism defence: “It’s empowering, women are allowed bodily autonomy.

2. I enjoy it, it’s all consensual.

This is obviously bullshit. If you watch porn on a mainstream platform it is very likely that the woman you are watching has been directly trafficked and is being raped. If she hasn’t been, the woman or girl in the next clip may have been. You’re getting your rocks off to the filmed abuse of women and girls.

And that’s before we even start looking at how the commodification of women affects us more generally.

Please read this - it’s really eye opening

@Sunrise234

Seriously what did you expect when you post a thread about something, that people were just going to read and leave it? Surely the whole point of this is to have a discussion? You can’t be a control freak and think everyone should just nod and agree without a discussion.

It is weird you keep listing things which aren’t exactly to your exact opinion (even though most are actually agreeing with you). No one has complained that they want more porn aimed at females. People have not told you off for posting in AIBU they have simply asked the question because you refuse you accept anyone’s opinions other than your own.

OP has responded to every argument put forth from what I've seen. Not too hard to do really seeing as the arguments to her position have been weak and few and far between.

I agree on the whole. And I am of course completely against the abuse of children, trafficking etc... but you keep saying you can't know ? But there are verified pornstars and it seems you can't accept that.

Lots of verified big name porn stars have spoken out about the coercion, rape, humiliation etc that they have experienced in the industry. They don't tend to talk about it while they're still doing it but after they've left.

But there are verified pornstars and it seems you can't accept that

On Pornhub? There are, yes. Do you know they aren’t sustaining injury? Do you know that they consented to everything that was done?

I don’t know if you saw the photo I posted earlier of a “verified porn star”? The banner across the top of the page should be enough to put anyone off.

Also - if you’re using PH, you’re supporting its choice to host women and girls who have been trafficked, abused and raped on film.

@SmileEachDay I've already said I don't watch it. I have in the past. But I am, overall, against it. For reasons like the word 'teen' being used etc...
But it does seem like you don't like it either way and assume that people who watch it are supporting trafficking which is wrong.

But it does seem like you don't like it either way

And why do you think I don’t like porn?

given that I have three tween / teen DC's

This is one of my major worries. The work I’ve done with teens about porn at school has been really concerning - it’s imperative that they are protected from the negative effects of filmed porn.

It's always ridiculous to me when people say "porn/prostitution have always existed and you'll never get rid of it, so it would be better to legalise and try to regulate it". Slavery has always existed and still exists today. We can't seem to get rid of that either. Is there anyone here who would support legalising slavery in order to regulate it instead of working to eradicate it? Of course not. Most people want to fight to end slavery with their last breath. And I honestly think that's because slavery poses an obvious harm to men as well as women and children. But when it comes to an industry where the benefit is almost entirely to men and the harm is almost entirely to women and children suddenly its just all so complicated and there's nothing we can really do about it so we should just try and make space for it in the world.

OP what are you doing in the real world to support these girls and stop the exploitation? I think the porn industry is pretty much universally heinous, it's backbone is the exploitation and degradation of women. Netflix is currently showing the movie 365 days in which a woman is kidnapped and sexually humiliated. The sex scenes are pretty graphic. We're led to believe that this is somehow every woman's fantasy and 'romantic'. We deserve better and should be appalled that young girls and vulnerable women are treated this way.

OP what are you doing in the real world to support these girls and stop the exploitation?

One of the main things I do is work with groups of teenagers at school (I’m a teacher) specifically about porn. Some of this is combatting the messages porn gives re sex and relationships, some of it is exploring how porn works to “rewire”your brain and some of it is around CSE and how that is linked to porn and the wider sex “trade”.

Separately to this, I also work individually with girls at risk of CSE.

We deserve better and should be appalled that young girls and vulnerable women are treated this way

I completely agree.

@SmileEachDay

OP what are you doing in the real world to support these girls and stop the exploitation?

One of the main things I do is work with groups of teenagers at school (I’m a teacher) specifically about porn. Some of this is combatting the messages porn gives re sex and relationships, some of it is exploring how porn works to “rewire”your brain and some of it is around CSE and how that is linked to porn and the wider sex “trade”.

Separately to this, I also work individually with girls at risk of CSE.

We deserve better and should be appalled that young girls and vulnerable women are treated this way

I completely agree.

Thank you for answering. How are teens responding to your work, do you feel like there's any shift in their attitudes? Are there any resources/organisations etc that I can look into? I feel like I need to do more.

If you dropped the contempt & patronising attitude your argument would be heard by more people.

I don’t support the trafficking of women & think there is great benefit into developing more regulations around the industry so as to prevent trafficking.

But you seem to refuse to believe that there are some women who genuinely do want to be porn stars & are consenting. You say “well how do you know they are not being injured ?” - professional athletes sometimes sustain injuries, that doesn’t mean they have not consented to that football game, or running that race.

Your refusal to believe that the top tier porn stars who are big names are not consenting is where you lose your argument. Because your argument is clouded by your own perceptions. You don’t even know any porn stars, you don’t follow any. So your fear of the unknown is strong.

You keep insisting people can’t know if they have consented - but you actually don’t know they have not because you don’t watch porn, follow any porn stars & are naive about the industry in general.

As an ex exotic dancer/stripper genuinely confused what your issue with lap dancing clubs is - it’s a great way to make some good coin if you’re a good dancer & no actual touching involved. Why do you think lap dancing clubs should be banned ?

I also notice I was actually engaging with your argument & you didn’t even bother to reply, so it suggests you actually can’t handle it when a woman has a different opinion to you.

Like you can’t actually fathom that someone could watch ports but also simultaneously want to advocate for women’s rights. You’re so argumentative, you get people offside.

A true leader inspires people to create change. You’re just a bully who is patronising people & doesn’t understand anything about the mainstream porn industry

You completely dismissed me when I said there are huge female owned production companies like Evil Angel & Jules Jordan - so yes, we are not stupid, we can decipher porn which is consensual & we know our favourite porn stars are consenting, smart & savvy business women.

Not everyone is looking up “bitch slapping teen rape” are they, no. You are so in your bubble you can’t comprehend anybody who thinks differently to you & say we are no better than a rapist.

You’re not inspiring or encouraging anyone here. The people who hate porn are your echo chamber & you have yet to show me any argument that suggests you can even acknowledge that many big pornstars are consenting women.

Do you really think Sasha Grey wasn’t consenting? Do you?

I completely agree with everything you've said OP, and well done at not allowing yourself to be derailed by the whataboutery.

You’re just a bully who is patronising people & doesn’t understand anything about the mainstream porn industry

Yeah OP, you big bully!

You can’t compare slavery to porn. Slavery is always forced upon someone where as porn is not. As I said I have friends who do porn and they are in no way forced.

I find this hard to understand. Before the Internet, porn used to be just for dirty old men and teenage boys. Your average married man didn't have a collection of pornos, at most he may have read playboy or some other mens magazine.

But those magazines were still porn. There are many findings from even in Victorian times where porn is found. But as time has changed so has technology and so has the types of porn. Lots of women read erotic books which are their own version of porn. You used to be able to hire porn movies from VHS shops. In male magazines just because there are still photos and not videos doesn’t mean the girls weren’t forced or trafficked into taking the photo.

Porn will always be there and the more people call for all porn to be banned the more damage it will cause as it will be part of the dark web and more people will be forced into it and not be able to speak out.

ClementineWoolysocks

In general teens respond well. Often, once you dig through the bravado, there’s a lot of anxiety and fear around the porn they have seen or heard about.

We deliberately embed work around porn into a wider context of healthy relationships- when women and girls in porn are viewed as somehow “other” to their friends/sisters/mums then that can spawn some incredibly problematic attitudes that take a lot of unpicking.

In terms of resources - gosh, lots. I always start with work around the teenage brain and how open and vulnerable it is. There are loads of great books about that I like this one a lot

I’ve found that starting here makes subsequently discussion about pornography and it’s negative effects much easier - it can be framed as “Because of what we know about teenage brains X can happen and this means...” - much easier for teens to take on board.

Phew. If you’re a teacher, I’ve also got lots of more specific lessony resources which I’d be happy to email you. Otherwise there are some great articles re teens/porn which I often use as the start of a discussion.

Let me know if you want anything further.

*vikingwife

You’ve made it clear several times that you don’t like my tone, or the content of my posts.

I’m not forcing you to read them. I’m also not going to respond to the last two lengthy personal attacks.

@SmileEachDay

ClementineWoolysocks

In general teens respond well. Often, once you dig through the bravado, there’s a lot of anxiety and fear around the porn they have seen or heard about.

We deliberately embed work around porn into a wider context of healthy relationships- when women and girls in porn are viewed as somehow “other” to their friends/sisters/mums then that can spawn some incredibly problematic attitudes that take a lot of unpicking.

In terms of resources - gosh, lots. I always start with work around the teenage brain and how open and vulnerable it is. There are loads of great books about that ]]

I’ve found that starting here makes subsequently discussion about pornography and it’s negative effects much easier - it can be framed as “Because of what we know about teenage brains X can happen and this means...” - much easier for teens to take on board.

Phew. If you’re a teacher, I’ve also got lots of more specific lessony resources which I’d be happy to email you. Otherwise there are some great articles re teens/porn which I often use as the start of a discussion.

Let me know if you want anything further.

Thank you for that, I'll download that book for starters :) I'm not a teacher but I worked with young children/early teens for a lot of years. I gave it up when my mum became unable to care for herself and needed my full-time help. I'm thinking hard about whether I want to return to the field.

You refuse to engage because of your bias & cant handle anybody who doesn’t agree with you.

It’s quite telling you think I was attacking you, when your language + tone has been aggressive throughout this thread

Maybe OP is 'aggressive' (I don't think she is being) because she's fucking FURIOUS about the widespread horrific exploitation of women and girls, the profound negative effects of porn on our society, and the absolute blind denial by so many that there is a problem because it's deeply inconvenient to admit?

That's certainly why I feel a bit 'aggressive' on the subject.

because she's fucking FURIOUS about the widespread horrific exploitation of women and girls, the profound negative effects of porn on our society, and the absolute blind denial by so many that there is a problem because it's deeply inconvenient to admit?

This is definitely true.

Viking
At no point have I made personal comments about any poster.

I have repeatedly said that if you use Pornhub you are supporting the trafficking and abuse of women and girls - because that is true.

The one screenshot I’ve shared - of a “top flight porn star” (who I googled because another poster mentioned her as an example of non exploitative porn) first click took me straight to Pornhub and had a banner at the top that says “Jerk off with random teens: see girls” Pornhub is an absolute cesspit - people defending it are talking bullshit.

You are angry with me because I’m not interested in your examples of women in porn who are fine - I’m focused on the ones suffering harm, the children and the wide negative effect on society.

Here's some former porn stars talking about how great the industry has been for them:

fightthenewdrug.org/10-porn-stars-speak-openly-about-their-most-popular-scenes/

https://filmdaily.co/news/female-porn-stars-abuse/

https://www.collectiveshout.org/pornstarssspeakout

It's a myth that porn is a great and positive career choice for women, even when they haven't been trafficked. It's coercive and abusive, even for women who are 'stars'. But ignoring their voices makes consumers of porn feel better

I was just thinking about the 'teen' thing.

We all know (or most women do) that a large minority of men fancy underage girls, due to the sort of things said to us when in school uniform etc.

I have seen calls for the age to appear in porn reduced to 16 to align with the age of consent. Including a motion at a lib dem conference years ago. The argument is it's inconsistent, denying bodily autonomy, that sort of thing

If this were to happen in the UK, what sort of appetite do posters think there would be for that type of porn?

If hypothetically it were made in a country with a lower age of consent and appearing in porn, what kind of appetite world there be?

My guess would be that it would be extremely popular indeed. If anyone thinks differently I'd be interested in knowing why.

I suppose my point is that the appetite for porn means we have seen it get more and more extreme. The younger, the more abusive the better. Anal is now standard where it used to be niche. Choking, spitting, hair pulling, slapping. Things that are disrespectful or painful or dangerous are commonplace. Women in large numbers report having this stuff done to them without prior consent. We know that girls are being coerced into 'trying' things and that both teen boys and girls have skewed ideas about sex.

To put it on individual families to solve this on a 1 by 1 basis is just not going to work. The idea it's not a societal issue is one I don't understand. On the one hand it's down to the parents to solve it, on the other hand porn is fine. So that's a conundrum right there for a start.

NiceGerbil

One of the pieces of art from my OP suggests you’re spot on that younger teens would be extremely popular on PH.

We know that porn activates the same bit of your brain that addiction does - so the content needs to be increasingly extreme in order to get the same “high”. The flip side of that is becoming desensitisation to increasingly hardcore actions.

Hence the increased pay for “consenting” to more and more extreme things. (This is described in a much more articulate way in one of the articles re porn actresses linked earlier)

It’s such a multi faceted shitshow.