Antisemitism online

[serenada]

Isn't there something we can do? I remember a post on here, years ago, by a mum who was very frightened and her post stood out to me.

It isn't right that the Jewish community have to defend themselves alone here - can't we do something to show support and let people know they are not alone in this?

I think the problem is being anti-Semite and being anti-Israel get so entwined in peoples minds- on both side of the debate (debate on Israel not on being anti-Semite)- so people who are anti-Israel as a regime often come out with anti Jewish statements but equally any comment about being anti-Israel is viewed as being anti Jewish. I actually think there needs to be an open debate on this.

I think to a certain extent being anti Semitic is acceptable as on the main Jews aren’t the under dog. We aren’t generally identifiable by our appearance, aren’t generally economically and socially deprived, we are proportionally represented and often over represented in public life. We also aren’t subject generally to police stop and searches etc. Therefore people don’t see “the cause” and it’s easier to put us down with statements and generalisations.

The Israel question is a massive one. I think the vast majority of anti Jewish sentiment does come from the Israel situation. Legitimate criticism of the Israel government (who in my opinion are abhorrent and an embarrassment) is not anti Semitic, it’s vitally important

What is anti Semitic in my opinion is a blanket being anti Israel per se. To understand why most diaspora Jews feel passionately about the existence of israel is 100% because of anti semitism. As long as the state of Israel exists as a Jewish homeland, if and when the sh*t hits the fan we have somewhere to go who wants us to be there. It’s our security and our escape route and to not recognise this and to be blatant “anti Israel” is anti semitism

Your average person in the U.K. even if they think they are “woke” and inclusive and not racist, fundamentally sees it as illogical that Jewish people have anything to complain about. They’re on top, lucky, in power, so antisemitism must be made up.

I don't get how you can think that & ignore what happened to Jewish people. I remember going to the Anne Frank house as a teen & I will never forget it.

To be honest, I thought most of the threads about BLM on here were ANTI-BLM. Plenty of Jews support BLM, incidentally. A lot of Jews were involved in the Civil Rights movement back in the day, as well as anti-Nazi/anti-fascist movements. I feel like Jews are being played off against black people here and I'm not too comfortable with it.

We're the one minority group that both the far left and the far right hate. The far right hate us because we killed Jesus or we're not white enough (except when they're pitting us against Muslims or black people, who they hate more), the far left hate us because of Israel and because we have relative privilege. OK, sure, people like Ed Miliband exist but on the other hand, you have a lot of Jews living in poverty. We're not all loaded. I'm not. I wish I was as powerful as conspiracy nutjobs think I am. It always hurts when people you like turn out to be anti-Semitic. I'm a huge fan of Space (as in the Female of the Species band), as I've mentioned elsewhere, and they're pro-BDS - though evidently their concern about human rights doesn't extend to Qatar, where they played last year - and both their manager and one of the band members are very into anti-Semitic conspiracy theories. I'm not a fan of Wiley but when it comes from a band I like, it hurts. And they hyperfocus on Israel. And yes, I've had the whole 'let's ask her what she thinks of Israel' thing, and I'm a convert. At Glastonbury one year, some bloke in the Green Field took me into his stall and made me look at photos of Israeli atrocities after he overheard me talking to my friends about converting to Judaism. Another time I mentioned I was learning Hebrew and a guy immediately pipes up about Israel. In left-wing groups I constantly feel like I have to defend myself and reiterate that I'm not pro-Israel, and there's a huge difference between legitimate criticism of Israel and shit like Holocaust denial. Denying the Holocaust does not help Palestinians. It's at the point where I stick to Jewish pro-Palestine groups because I can't trust pro-Palestine gentiles not to turn on me. And Im sick to death of gentiles saying 'Jews should know better after the Holocaust'. The Holocaust was a genocide, not an educational experience. Deniers know damn well it happened, they just claim it didn't to fuck with our heads.

To whoever it was that mentioned common ground - this is exactly what Jewish and Muslim interfaith groups have been trying to do. Some Orthodox Jews in particular feel a lot of kinship with Muslims over things like modesty, dietary requirements and zakat/tzedakah, and the Shomrim (who are basically an Orthodox Neighbourhood Watch patrol) have guarded mosques. I've honestly had far more anti-Semitism from Christians than Muslims. One of my colleagues told me TO MY FACE that Jews killed Jesus, and another one said we should get over the Holocaust, and another one told me that as a convert I'm not a real Jew and anti-Semitism doesn't affect me, and that I pick and choose because I take Christmas off (I have no choice, the place is closed at Christmas) and I don't go to synagogue. I am so glad I don't work with them anymore. I complained and nothing was done about it. And these weren't ~woke~ types. Quite the opposite.

@coronabeer23 Someone made a very good point after an attack on Jews in France and the increase in French Jews making aliyah. You don't want more Jews going to Israel? Stop making us feel like we're not safe in our home countries.

tabernacles If someone knocked on my door 10 years after I bought a house and said they used to live here that would be too late for them to move back in.

Just about every spot on earth has had several owners. I suppose we could all argue a right to live in Africa since we evolved there.

But the decision was made and now the aim must be to make it work. A political question now that has nothing to do with a Jewish man who happens to be standing behind me in a queue. That's why I think it's important not to conflate the two.

Oh, and one more thing. I joined the J-Soc (Jewish Society) at uni and we always had to have security at our events. The reason why I joined Facebook, back when it was students only, was because it was the only way I could find out about J-Soc events - before Facebook became a thing, you only found out via a text messaging service which wasn't always reliable. J-Soc didn't publicise events the way other societies did. I got chatting to a lad I knew who was doing security at a Friday night dinner event and he said J-Soc had to have loads of security because we were being watched. Who by, I don't know, but that really chilled me.

Also, my alma mater is Manchester, as in the university that had Motion One and was always pushing pro-Palestine/anti-Israel motions through general meetings. It got so bad police had to be called, and outsiders were coming in for both sides and the union was rammed. It got really nasty. The vast majority of students aren't arsed about conflict in the Middle East, but the Islamic Society/Socialist Worker contingent were always trying to enact BDS and push anti-Israel motions, and the J-Soc and their allies pushed back, and it got to the point where the number of Jewish students coming to Manchester actually dropped. Like, they had to get rid of Hillel House (the exclusively Jewish hall of residence) because there weren't enough people. And I think all the politics bullshit is a huge part of that. We had BNP activity there as well.

There used to be thousands of Jewish students at the Manchester universities. Today there are virtually none as it’s just not a comfortable place for them to be. Think about it, Jewish students don’t want to be studying at one of the top universities in the country, in one of our main and fantastic cities because they don’t feel comfortable. That’s absolutely terrible.

Many Jewish students want to go to “jewniversities” unis where there are a large number of Jewish students because it’s where they feel safe and therefore they are in the main in universities in a limited number of cities (London, Leeds, Nottingham, Bristol, Birmingham, oxford and Cambridge and a few in Edinburgh). That’s hardly going to help the general public’s perception of Jewish people

It really sucks. J-Soc was very cliquey (everyone knew each other from youth groups), not too friendly to converts or non-Orthodox Jews and a bit pro-Israel for me, but I would still defend its right to exist and i met some lovely people through it and I hate the fact that so many Jews don't feel safe going to Manchester anymore. There's loads of synagogues, including the student one, and kosher shops and stuff in certain parts of Manchester - Sainsbury's in Fallowfield even has a decent kosher section.

The fact we have private funded religious police in the country to protect schools says we have a massive issue. This in itself should be enough for anyone to realise there is clearly outright racism and antisemitism and people feel threatened going about their daily lives. This is totally wrong. Again I don’t think we have that for any other religion in this country.

And I don’t want to stray too far away from the op but I am a supporter of the state of Israel. But never hear of anyone saying it openly. No country is perfect but I really have never heard anything positive about it. Reading the above, is it because people are fearful of a backlash?

I’m a gentile and RC and so is my friend and we went on holiday there. The saddest thing were so many people we met (mostly 20s and 30s) were so shocked we weren’t Jewish/didn’t have Jewish family/ weren’t visiting or staying with Jewish people we know. I’ve never heard that in any other country I’ve visited.

I went to Berlin in 2012 on a family holiday and we went the Jewish quarter, and my stepsiblings were really shocked when we passed a Jewish school and it had cameras and heavy security. I had to explain that this is actually fairly normal for a lot of Jewish places in Europe, and the US as well. A Jewish guy I knew at uni said his school was regularly warned about far right activity in the area, and my synagogue always has extra security on festival days and they're super cagey about newcomers because it's in the city centre. Like, they had to ban one guy because he was attracting too much attention, and we had the odd Christian sneak in and try to convert people - I had one follow me up the road after kiddush telling me I was going to Hell, and there was a fundie Christian girl who sat in on the Friday night services reading Corinthians to herself, which I thought was a bit rude, and eventually the mask slipped and she tried to convert people too. You have to be careful.

I just wanted to offer support to Jewish people. I went to school with lots of Jewish people and was good friends with a few Jewish girls growing up. I went to play at their houses and our parents were good friends.

I've moved away now to an area where I don't meet any Jewish people. I would call it out if I heard any, I've never heard anyone say anything bad in real life. Only strangers on the internet. I am aware of a restaurant near me owned by Israelis and I know it markets itself as Mediterranean as I think they're worried if they said Israeli then they'd get abuse. And the Israeli embassy here is heavily guarded.

I wanted to offer a bit of support though, just so you know supportive people are out there!!

And also, I think it's one of the reasons Corbyn was a disaster, so there's some comfort in that I suppose.

Oh and I'm really shocked hearing about Jewish students not feeling comfortable at Manchester. That's awful. I went there in the olden days and there were loads of Jewish students. What about the Jewish community in north Manchester? Do they have to go elsewhere?

And I don’t want to stray too far away from the op but I am a supporter of the state of Israel. But never hear of anyone saying it openly. No country is perfect but I really have never heard anything positive about it. Reading the above, is it because people are fearful of a backlash?

I agree. There are many incredible things about the state of israel. What they have achieved in what was essentially barren land in the last 70 years is extraordinary. It is a modern european city in the centre of the middle east. The medical research, technology and agriculture is far beyond anything in europe. It is the only democracy in the middle east, it's the only country in the middle east which is completely LGBTQ supportive, their gay pride is amazing. Arab Israelis live and work alongside their jewish brethren. you only have to go into any restaurant / shop in most parts of israel to see it. There are MASSIVE problems with equality between jews and arabs in israel, the current domestic policy is problematic and this needs to be addressed urgently. However, it is a truly extraordinary country. Nobody really wants to get to understand this. It doesn't take away from the palestinian issue which is rightly massive but a little bit of proper understanding of the country would help

Anti-semitism is rife everywhere, even on mumsnet. I'm not jewish but as a POC, I'm used to dog whistles and implicit racism. I've seen posters on mumsnet suggest that jewish people can't face any prejudice because they're all rich and other such nonsense. Mumsnet, generally, is quite racist (the BLM threads were far from positive) so, unfortunately, this isn't surprising.

@PhilSwagielka

I went to Berlin in 2012 on a family holiday and we went the Jewish quarter, and my stepsiblings were really shocked when we passed a Jewish school and it had cameras and heavy security. I had to explain that this is actually fairly normal for a lot of Jewish places in Europe, and the US as well. A Jewish guy I knew at uni said his school was regularly warned about far right activity in the area, and my synagogue always has extra security on festival days and they're super cagey about newcomers because it's in the city centre. Like, they had to ban one guy because he was attracting too much attention, and we had the odd Christian sneak in and try to convert people - I had one follow me up the road after kiddush telling me I was going to Hell, and there was a fundie Christian girl who sat in on the Friday night services reading Corinthians to herself, which I thought was a bit rude, and eventually the mask slipped and she tried to convert people too. You have to be careful.

It’s normal here too. You can’t just walk into a Jewish school or shul.

I think part of it is that there are so few Jews in England compared to the States. Outside of maybe London, Manchester and Leeds (to a certain degree Liverpool, where I am, but our community is tiny) there just aren't so many of us. And the "visible" Jews - the ultra Orthodox - are even rarer. So perhaps a lot of people can't imagine there would be a problem, not knowing about the security we have in our shuls and schools.

Antisemitism is rife even here on MN. the silence on the Wiley recent outburst was screamingly silent in response here on MN unlike say Katie Hopkins but jews aren't always considered inclusive by some under the anti racism umbrella due 'to their power and wealth and running of the banks and media..'

Joe Public thinks of Jewish people as simply white people who follow a different religion.

Not really. Joe Public's view of Jews isn't much different than the Nazi propaganda posters of the 30s. It really isn't. Scratch the surface.

@coronabeer23

You only have to go back to some of the corbyn threads on here where debates became heated as to whether or not corbyn is anti Semitic. Jewish posters who felt he was were shouted down by other posters who told them they were wrong. Is it acceptable to tell a black or BAME person something isn’t racist when they say it is? No it’s not, so why is it ok to tell a Jewish person they are wrong?

Yes of course it is ok to tell someone something isn't racist if it isn't. This is how you educate both sides of divides. Explaining to racists/antisemites why something is racist and equally why something isn't racist/antisemitic to BAME/ Jewish people. Reporting in the media seems to avoid quoting the offending material, removing the opportunity for people to judge for themselves / educate themselves about changing boundaries of racism/sexism/antisemitism.

@coronabeer23 absolutely! Wonderful country which achieves a huge amount of scientific and technological advancements which the world benefits from. Also the LGBTQ+ positive attitude was a big part in feeling safe to go. We wouldn’t have felt welcome in many other countries and none in the Middle East.

I agree with other posters. The Jewish community in the UK is very small so I think the general public is less aware of every day issues faced all which add up into antisemitism.

I should add, I didn’t realise the extent of security needed though I am aware of extra policing around schools and synagogues.

@frogswimming I don't go there much these days but I'm pretty sure the Jewish community up here is still going strong. You do see groups of ultra-Orthodox/Charedi Jews from time to time at Piccadilly station or wherever (as in the black hat and peyot brigade).

Katie Hopkins has said anti-Semitic stuff in the past, she just prefers going after black people and Muslims because she knows it's more acceptable to hate them.

Also, while Israel is more LGBT-friendly than the rest of the Middle East, bear in mind that a lot of Orthodox Jews are very anti-Pride and have protested it. There was one guy who stabbed a couple of people at one parade. I don't think you could be openly LGBT in somewhere like Mea Sharim.

@philSwagielka yes that is very true. There are so many things about the ultra orthodox we could say.... But absolutely, it's very hard, if not impossible to be LGBTQ in that community but within the secular community it's not an issue at all