Antisemitism online

[serenada]

Isn't there something we can do? I remember a post on here, years ago, by a mum who was very frightened and her post stood out to me.

It isn't right that the Jewish community have to defend themselves alone here - can't we do something to show support and let people know they are not alone in this?

@TinnitusQueen

I'm staggered. I just don't understand why anybody would have an issue with Jewish people. I simply don't see a difference at all, so even if I wanted to be racist, I'd need you to point them out!! It's insane. In comparison to me, a christian, jewish people look identical, speak identically, behave identically. As a christian I believe that Jesus was jewish and we have the same God. I just don't understand the problem.

All Jews have middle Eastern ancestry. Some more than others. Some may have light skin (often Ashkenazi Jews, who are still 50% ME), but that is partly due to enslavement/rape by Europeans, and partly to the Holocaust (as whiter looking Jews would have been more likely to survive).

But many do not have light skin and also have ethnicities including Indian, Chinese, Ethiopian, south American etc. There are Jews from all over the world, and many of them do not look, speak, or behave the same as you (assuming you are white). And Orthodox Jews definitely look different from you, regardless of their skin colour.

They can all suffer racism, even when their Jewishness is not visible. That may be from their dress, or their name, or their cultural practices. Or from inter-generational trauma, passed down from their ancestors who were murdered or ejected from various countries.

Yes @Lifeisgenerallyfun

I have been studying the history of knowledge and I remember reading about Germany in the 1870s? (here is where I get it all wrong) There is a German writer (Hesse, perhaps) that said man was trying to uncouple ideas from their moral grounding - a grounding that the Church falsely applied and that intellectuals had successfully separated the two in order to liberate man (but actually, he said that they just wanted sex without the social and moral obligations that came with it at the time). The university that was established was a home for these new ideas. I can't help thinking that the moment these ideas were severed from their roots , the consequences were inevitable (and to be felt a mere 50 years or so later).

Apologies, for the poot explanation - I am getting various names confused I 'm sure but the gist of it is correct. If we fail to acknowledge the source/root of this knowledge and only view it through a secular lens we are in trouble, I think.

Hope Not Hate have today launched a series of articles based on their archives, as a reminder of how quickly things can take off: www.hopenothate.org.uk/2020/07/29/from-the-archive-the-britons/

HNH don't solely campaign against antisemitism, but it's one of their major activities.

@rosiejaune

inter-generational trauma,

Yes, I completely believe this but I am not sure it is an accepted idea?

I'm Jewish and support Jeremy. Does that make me anti-Semitic; a self-hating Jew? Like all other social minority groups, we are not a homogeneous blob with one opinion
I think it’s weird to be Jewish and support the last labour leader- just like I think it’s strange when black people support Trump, women support Trump. But again we are doing it on this thread, being critical of Israel was not why Corbyn was considered by many an antisemite.

I agree that anti-semitism (as well as any kind of racism) should and MUST be challenged... However - I think the definition of what actually constitutes genuine anti-semistism is sometimes abused:
For example: I have been branded "anti-semitic" for legitimate critism of Israel's intrasigence, arrogant disregard for international law etc..
Critism of the Israeli leadership regime is not anti-semitic.
Attacks on Jews or Arabs (how I should point out are the biggest Semitic group) most certainly IS anti-Semitic.
There's a huge difference between critism of a country's leadership, impunity and intransigence, and actually attacking/abusing somebody for BEING of Semitic racial origins or Jewish. To be clear, I believe any attack of abuse on somebody for being Semite (whether Jewish or Arab) is appalling and MUST be treated with the seriousness it deserves. Having said that, a very clear distinction needs to be drawn. Cries of "anti-Semitism" are thrown about very casually by people who don't necessarily understand the true defininition of the term, meaning those whose intention is to "silence" legitimate critism of Israeli policies/leadership.
As a Jewish person, I feel ashamed of Israeli behaviour. And no, before anybody points the finger, that DOESN'T make me a "self-hating Jew". It makes me true to Judaism and loving towards my Palestinian cousins from Abraham

[quote serenada]@tabernacles

That distinction isn't being made by some people, though, is it? Wasn't that the problem? My housemate was a Corbyn supporter and Jewish, my Jewish relative is, too. The problem is the unquestioned assumption that if you are Jewish you must support all of Israel's activities, no? and lots of Jewish people have said, no, they don't agree with Netanyahu/settlements/policies, etc.[/quote]
Well yes, but there are people conflating the two for different reasons:

a) In order to accuse non-Jews of anti-Semitism (which is what I was referring to re Jeremy).

b) In order to make all Jews responsible for the treatment of Palestinians (when even plenty of Israeli Jews don't agree with the situation, let alone Jews in the Diaspora), which is what you referred to.

As a very left-wing libertarian person, I feel pressure from non-Jews in my social circle to disavow Israel entirely, when actually, I do feel that it has a right to exist (reclaiming ancestral lands), even though I don't agree with the implementation.

Yet the same people who support American Indians having control over reservations, or allowing African Americans to access citizenship of African countries, or giving Roma citizenship of India, do not support the existence of Israel and the migration of Jews there.

It's totally illogical, and perhaps based on the fact that they see Jews as white oppressors of the Palestinian minority, when a) they aren't white, and b) Palestinians are descended from the Arabs who ejected Jews from Israel in the first place. That doesn't mean they deserve what's happening to them now, of course, but it's not the same dynamic or historical background as e.g. apartheid in south Africa, which is a common comparison.

And I think any solution must take into account the trauma the Jewish people as a whole have suffered across thousands of years (not just the last century), and the collective anxiety they experience. That doesn't excuse how the state is treating Palestinians, but it does provide important context to why Israel reacts in the way it does, and shows that realistically the former must be addressed before you can change the latter. Is there counselling available for entire nations?!

@tabernacles

That is something that has never sat easily with me - some cultures are allowed to claim their roots but Jews are not acknowledged as having a legitimate link to Israel.

I have to go now but will be back on tomorrow - I am supposed to be on a conference in China and last time I checked in, there were 7 men all waiting for the call to start, talking about pizza....so I left them to it

I'm Muslim and I do always speak about Islamophobia/racism/anti-Semitism when I witness it. I know what it feels like and would like someone to stand up for me, therefore I stand up for others.

When Islam came along, the death of Muhammad was quickly pinned on a Jewish woman serving him poisoned lamb (of God????). Immediately this justified the prediction of Jews and removal of their lands (basically to extend the caliph).

I must say as a Muslim I've never heard this before. We were taught he died of a natural illness.

I think there's a good reason why many people steer clear of these discussions. If you ask someone in the street if Jewish people should be abused they are overwhelmingly going to say no. Any decent person would.

But when it gets discussed it gets bogged down in the Israeli state issues. When I speak to a Jewish person in the UK I don't see the Israeli government at all and those things should be entirely separate. Yet I've seen accusations of anti-Semitism based on someone talking about Israel. I've seen people say that all criticism of Israel is code for anti-Semitism and must be eradicated.

The only people responsible for the Israeli decisions are the government there (and to a lesser extent those who elected them), but it's perfectly reasonable to hold an opinion about those decisions.

I for one don't think anything that happened 1000s of years ago gives anyone the right to take land in the Middle East now. Much as I understand the impulse to find a homeland for the survivors. (though had I been a survivor I'd have jumped at the chance for a new home so I can't really blame the ordinary Israeli citizens either)

So it's "do I think Jewish people should be treated decently and equally"

"Yes i do, but don't ask me about Israel as you probably won't like the answer."

@serenada this is true. So many threads with hundreds or thousands of posts for the BLM and yet just four pages for this one. And these issues are just as important as each other.

I’m not Jewish but call out antisemitism online or in real life (of which thankfully I’ve not heard). I think that’s the most I can do on a day to day basis.

I couldn’t agree more @tabernacles. I am also baffled as to why Israel and Jewish people are seen as one. I would say people must just be stupid but it’s not stupidity, it’s thinly veiled racism. Doesn’t happen with any other religion.

I also think there’s a massive issue with the support of Palestine being the ‘cool’/woke option and there’s a huge amount of racism towards Jewish people not very well hidden in the support for Palestine. I think this has certainly been the case with the hard left/younger labour supporters and students for the past couple of decades. Trying to engage in polite debate/conversation often gets shouted down.

OP...you asked originally about doing something about anti-semitism. I support the Yellow Candle project which works to raise awareness of the holocaust. I find it shocking how many people don’t know about the holocaust or think it’s all been exaggerated.

Lots of typos there - sorry.

@LastTrainEast

I think there's a good reason why many people steer clear of these discussions. If you ask someone in the street if Jewish people should be abused they are overwhelmingly going to say no. Any decent person would.

But when it gets discussed it gets bogged down in the Israeli state issues. When I speak to a Jewish person in the UK I don't see the Israeli government at all and those things should be entirely separate. Yet I've seen accusations of anti-Semitism based on someone talking about Israel. I've seen people say that all criticism of Israel is code for anti-Semitism and must be eradicated.

The only people responsible for the Israeli decisions are the government there (and to a lesser extent those who elected them), but it's perfectly reasonable to hold an opinion about those decisions.

I for one don't think anything that happened 1000s of years ago gives anyone the right to take land in the Middle East now. Much as I understand the impulse to find a homeland for the survivors. (though had I been a survivor I'd have jumped at the chance for a new home so I can't really blame the ordinary Israeli citizens either)

So it's "do I think Jewish people should be treated decently and equally"

"Yes i do, but don't ask me about Israel as you probably won't like the answer."

So what number of years would you say is OK to expect to return to one's ancestral lands after?

Bearing in mind that

a) Regardless of whereabouts Diasporic Jews ended up after being ejected from Israel (and not all of them left anyway; there has been a consistent Jewish presence in the Levant all that time, albeit smaller), it's been temporary, as other countries have also consistently ejected or killed us, so we haven't properly settled anywhere, i.e. we have no other homeland where the nation can be together.

b) In our festivals and culture there is a very strong association with Israel being our homeland. E.g. every Passover across the world, Jews end the service with the words "next year in Jerusalem". Just because it was a long time ago, doesn't mean we have forgotten about it - there is an ethnic yearning for the place.

c) Plenty of Jews were returning (and also pilgrimaging) to the land of Israel before the Holocaust anyway; it's just that the modern state of Israel wasn't established till then.

@Cassilis it’s in Burkhari Hadith amongst other sources quranx.com/Hadith/Bukhari/USC-MSA/Volume-3/Book-47/Hadith-786

I know there’s some dispute around this and the authenticity of at least some of the work as a prophet would not be able to die by mans hand and I’ve seen several interpretations around it being preordained By God that he die To explain this, otherwise it’s claimed He died of natural causes. Another interpretation Based on the non validity of the Hadith is that it’s an attempt to stir up trouble With the Jews by the Sunni Muslims after Mohammed s death.

Sorry I meant to come on earlier to say I call out anti-Semitism when I hear it, which luckily isn't often in my world. Sadly I have a blood-relative who seems to think it's acceptable to be anti-Semitic, but I challenge him every time. Our parents would turn in their grave, as we were brought up to care about all peoples.

There are too many people currently getting sucked into conspiracy theories.

Thanks for this thread. It’s been a difficult week.

I’m Jewish. I do think anti semitism is seen as acceptable because many (such as Wiley) see Jews as being rich and/or powerful. We are not seen as the “underdog” so bigotry towards us can be seen as acceptable. For the “woke” types, Jews are just not who they see as “victims”so they think it’s ok to abuse us.

I don’t know how I feel re a right to return to Israel tho that others have mentioned. Jews have always lived in Israel, and many moved there pre the Israeli state. I am a reasonably religious person So that aspect of it is important to me. However I am also a firm believer in equal civil rights for all citizens of a country. I don’t consider I’m any less British than anyone else just because my ancestors were from elsewhere. I also have relatives in South Africa- I think they are somehow seen as foreign because they are white. But they were born and brought up in that country so are as much a South African as a black South African or Asian South African.

I wonder if it is in part because BLM is the current trendy woke cause so lots of social media attention is given to it. In particular by lots of the left wing younger people who hang out on Twitter.
Anti Semitism also runs into the left's long standing support for Palestine quite quickly and because Twitter is about easy answers to difficult questions it is hard to have more nuanced responses.
So it is less likely to get support both because of the demographics of social media and the nature of the medium.
Baroness Nicholson is retweeting a daily pictoral tweet of inmates of auschwitz auschwitz which is very moving.

I'm not even Jewish (I'm Irish) but I have a Hebrew name and dark features as do many in my family and extended family. I used to get teased/questioned a lot about my ethnicity growing up. I still get questioned about it. We are very very nervous because when Jews cop it so do we!!

I think there are some very genuine grievances though such as the quite open plans to invade the entire M.E (Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria etc) but that's a failure of hubristic leadership in all religious communities, not a specific community.

I’ve witnessed, many, many instances of racism in my life, but very few instances of anti-semitism. Maybe, I’m being naive, and the more subtle examples go over my head. Even a single instance of anti-semitism is unacceptable, of course.

I hope Jewish people don’t feel that they are a tiny minority in the UK. I wasn’t brought up as Jewish, but I had a Jewish grandparent. Several of my friends also had at least one Jewish grandparent or great-grandparent. I think many Britons have some Jewish ancestry.

@Cattenberg

I’ve witnessed, many, many instances of racism in my life, but very few instances of anti-semitism. Maybe, I’m being naive, and the more subtle examples go over my head. Even a single instance of anti-semitism is unacceptable, of course.

I hope Jewish people don’t feel that they are a tiny minority in the UK. I wasn’t brought up as Jewish, but I had a Jewish grandparent. Several of my friends also had at least one Jewish grandparent or great-grandparent. I think many Britons have some Jewish ancestry.

I think there are very few Jews in the UK and very few have Jewish heritage. A constantly decreasing number. I'm Jewish. I tell very few people because I am wary of anti Semitic comments. I 'pass' as a non-Jew because I'm blond and live a Home Counties lifestyle (I don't know how to explain it but my family and I are very anglicised). Even my Jewish friends find me to be incongruous (more stereotyping!). I looked on Buzzfeed today for any mention of Wiley but there's was nothing there. Still many BLM mentions though. It makes me sad.

I must admit that I don’t really know any Jewish people. I had no Jewish friends at school / college and no Jewish colleagues in my team. If I hear an anti-Semitic remark (very rarely) I do challenge it.

I wonder if anti-Semitism is less visible because most Jewish people in the UK aren’t visibly Jewish, where as black and other minorities are often visibly non-white?

Cattenburg I'll repost what I wrote earlier

'I live in an area with some large Jewish populations. Synagogues started having people on the door when I was doing ante natal classes so 14 years ago. In an area with a large Jewish population there are swastikas sprayed. Our nearest synagogue hasn't published their address on their website for ages. If you want to go you have to phone up and have a chat then presumably they tell you where and when etc.'

That's not trivial is it and it's been going on for years.

Oh and add a bomb near me when I was younger. We heard it 4 miles away. Target was a Jewish newspaper.

In a nutshell;

Joe Public thinks of Jewish people as simply white people who follow a different religion.

Then layer that with the fact that white people are automatically privileged/ cant be oppressed.

Then layer that with the fact the stereotypes and tropes about Jewish people can be viewed as “punching up”

For Joe Public; Jewish people are just super privileged white folks who get advantages and power from their religious cult...

Your average person in the U.K. even if they think they are “woke” and inclusive and not racist, fundamentally sees it as illogical that Jewish people have anything to complain about. They’re on top, lucky, in power, so antisemitism must be made up.

This is the only explanation I can see for the fact that people who seem nice and ordinary can say phenomenally antisemitic things and deny that antisemitism even exists. 🤷‍♀️