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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To ask if you are OK with your daughter's subs being spent on this?

863 replies

KatieAlcock · 24/07/2020 19:43

I've just come to update you on my case against Girlguiding, where they expelled me for raising safeguarding concerns and for asking why we had to believe in inner gender identity to be a leader.
Girlguiding have spent AT LEAST £35,000 and probably more like £100,000 of the subs you pay for your daughter to go to Rainbows, Brownies or Guides, on defending a case against me, a committed leader who wants to make sure girls are safe and leaders have freedom of expression.

Full text of my update in the next post so as not to bore you to death!

OP posts:
PineappleUpsideDownCake · 25/07/2020 12:00

Sweet. There's nothing to stop male and female bodies sharig tents, or parents even knowing. Doesn't sound like good safeguarding to me.

KatieAlcock · 25/07/2020 12:15

@SweetPetrichor if adult men come as Unit Helpers they have additional safeguarding precautions e.g. sleeping in a separate tent on camp.
An adult male who identifies as a woman can however share a tent/room with the girls. Can you tell me how that's adequate?
Plus of course we as leaders aren't allowed to mention some children's biological sex. A groomer's dream.

OP posts:
ismellamouse · 25/07/2020 12:23

Well done OP. I really, really hope you win.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 25/07/2020 12:26

[quote RatInADollhouse]**@mummyoneboy19* , @RunningFromInsanity* and all of the rest who have pointed out the inconvenient facts here, save your breath. There are zillions of rabid GC not anti-trans of course, oh no never that people on here with a LOT of time on their hands and they will shout at you and hound you until you realize it’s not worth your time. Go watch something on Netflix or just sit there doing nothing. Your time is better used doing literally anything but engaging with this crew.

I know on MN it can feel like this is a large group of people but actually they just ALL converge on here. Many if not most are not regular MNers. They came to MN for the sole purpose of frothing discussing this topic. But seriously don’t even worry about it, it’s just noise. In real life more and more organisations and people are showing respect and inclusion for all types of people.[/quote]
I can't speak for anyone else, @RatInADollhouse, but I would say I qualify as a 'regular MNer', whatever that may be. I've been posting here for many years on a variety of subjects. I have become more gender critical since first joining MN but it's not just because of MN, and when I discuss this with people who've never been anywhere near MN I find we are in agreement. Safeguarding children is important. Girl Guiding seems to me from what I'm hearing here to be falling short in this area. I think that matters. I don't feel discussing this is frothing.

Sailingblue · 25/07/2020 12:27

For me, I don’t think the issue really is even about trans rights. The problem is that self-ID creates an opportunity for people to exploit that provision. How does an organisation weigh up the potential benefit of a boy self IDing as a girl being included versus the risk of a man with questionable intentions using self-ID provision to have access to girls? Now it might be that proper safeguarding protocols can reduce or eliminate risk of exploitation of self-ID but I’d be worried about using any organisation that refuses debate on the matter or won’t consider the potential risks as part of broader safeguarding. Guiding was potentially always between a rock and a hard place because a choice to pick gender might exclude girls from certain religions, raise safeguarding issues but a choice to pick sex wouldn’t have been trans inclusive.

Lemonyfuckit · 25/07/2020 12:39

Well done Katie for fighting this and I'm crossing my fingers for your case. As someone who massively enjoyed Guides when I was younger I'm so disappointed at the stance GG have taken as should I have a daughter one day I just don't think I could have her joining this organisation.

To your costs point - regardless of where GG are getting their funding for this case from, be it subs or supplemented by organisations such as Stonewall etc., the courts will certainly take account of their conduct throughout when it comes to deciding costs. It's highly likely the court will take a dim view of their conduct and their wracking up the costs like this, both from the perspective of bringing so much weight to hear against a lone litigant, insisting on unnecessary hearings (which then didn't go their way) and turning up to said hearings with such a huge legal team versus your one barrister.

Whatisthisfuckery · 25/07/2020 12:50

So Katie is bringing the case because:

GG have changed their policies to allow the admittance of male children and leaders into their single-sex organisation as long as they say they identify as female.

Because GG have a policy that any male, child or adult, who says they identify as female, is allowed to share intimate spaces such as sleeping arrangements and showering facilities with its biologically female members.

Because GG have a policy whereby biologically male adults who identify as female are permitted to provide intimate care to female children.

because GG have a policy whereby they do not and will not inform parents of any of the above when it applies where their children are in the care of GG.

Because GG are allowing admittance of males who identify as female to their organisation, but have a policy of disallowing females who identify as male.

Because GG have a policy of zero tolerance towards anybody raising concerns abut all the above, ad have, and will continue to dismiss anybody who does so.

Because GG, a charitable organisation who function as a result of donations from members of the public are using vast amounts of money defending the above, and in order to do so they are spending vast sums of money requesting extra hearings and paying a very expensive legal team to argue bitty little points in order to intimidate the other party and increase her costs in the eventuality that she loses.

YANBU OP, and quite honestly anybody who thinks otherwise is either naive, malicious or willfully ignorant.

WooleyJ123 · 25/07/2020 12:51

Jesus wept

How is this a safeguarding issue

How is this an issue at all

You wasted sub money on pursuing this BS case

I'd want my daughter to attend groups which include people, not full of bigots

WooleyJ123 · 25/07/2020 12:54

@StillWeRise

Nothing Katie has said or done equates to 'being upset trans people exist' this is about not believing people can change sex, and not being discriminated against for that belief also, about preserving a single sex place for girls, for reasons of dignity, safety. freedom from sexist stereotypes and in some cases, for religious observance
But why

There was rightful outrage when gentlemen's clubs were prevalent, why should women need special spaces?

There wasn't this huge issue when girls were allowed to join scouts, because it was excluding girls, but all of a sudden when the shoe is on the other foot all hell breaks loose.

Lemonyfuckit · 25/07/2020 12:56

*why should women need special spaces?
*
Do you really need this explaining to you?!

TabbyStar · 25/07/2020 12:57

There was rightful outrage when gentlemen's clubs were prevalent, why should women need special spaces?

Because 97/98% of sexual violence is carried out by males (and no evidence this decreases on "transition").

KatieAlcock · 25/07/2020 12:59

I'd want my daughter to attend groups which include people, not full of bigots
Indeed. I want all women included - not just those that adhere to a rigid gender identity.
I want all girls included - not just those whose parents are happy with them sharing a tent with a male adult.
If you really want an inclusive organisation, that includes both sexes, Scouts is over there --->

OP posts:
SarahTancredi · 25/07/2020 13:04

Its astounding the amount of people who think you are the problem Katie

Gg is no longer a single sex space akd still advertises itself as such. I bet No one on here would really be ok with a biological male providing intimate care to their disabled female child sleeping in their tent no matter how much they claim to be ok with mixed sex showering. Its disturbing how many people are willing to throw their own kids under a bus to appease males.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 25/07/2020 13:16

I'm 59. As far back as I can recall, I've been seeing news reports about sexual assault prosecutions of scoutmasters, youth leaders, choirmasters, vicars, priests and other ministers of religion, teachers, social workers, sports trainers, foster carers, care home workers, health care practitioners, politicians and others with access to children and teenagers through their work or voluntary activities. Almost everyone I can ever remember being convicted was male. When a woman is convicted of offences like this, she is almost always charged alongside a man.

I can't recall any case at all involving a female Guider abusing Girl Guides. Have I missed them? Where is the avalanche of historic child sexual abuse claims naming women in similar positions of responsibility?

LastTrainEast · 25/07/2020 13:20

@WooleyJ123

Jesus wept

How is this a safeguarding issue

How is this an issue at all

You wasted sub money on pursuing this BS case

I'd want my daughter to attend groups which include people, not full of bigots

On say a school trip would you expect your daughter to be forced to share a bedroom and shower with boys/men and would it feel better/worse if you only found out by accident as policy was not to let parents find out.

What would it take for you to call something a safeguarding issue? Can you give an example of a situation that does qualify?

YetAnotherSpartacus · 25/07/2020 13:28

This reply has been deleted

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Sometimeswinning · 25/07/2020 13:43

There was rightful outrage when gentlemen's clubs were prevalent, why should women need special spaces?

Confused really? You need this explaining??

TheFormerPorpentinaScamander · 25/07/2020 13:45

@WooleyJ123

why should women need special places

Are you that fucking stupid that you cant work that out?

Brownies/Guides was one of the only places I felt 100% safe as a child/teen. My brother raped me. It started with sexual abuse and ended with pregnancy. I never felt 100% safe at dance classes as we had a couple of boys there. They also ran judo lessons in the same building. Dads/brothers were there. All my friends had brothers and/or dads at home. Even though none of these men ever touched me I was very aware that they could.

GG was my 100%safe space. No boys. No men. No penises. Just girls and women. A safe haven for a traumatised child.

SarahTancredi · 25/07/2020 13:50

On say a school trip would you expect your daughter to be forced to share a bedroom and shower with boys/men and would it feel better/worse if you only found out by accident as policy was not to let parents find out

Wait til they find out just who it was who helped "advise" these policies Hmm

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 25/07/2020 14:05

Yes indeed. If I ran an organisation for girls of all ages and I needed advice on safeguarding, the very first person I'd turn to would be a campaigner for decriminalisation of extreme forms of pornography. Hmm

SarahTancredi · 25/07/2020 14:06

80 pages declaring a person incompetent re safguarding didn't seem to phase GG either.

Iamclearlyamug · 25/07/2020 14:41

[quote KatieAlcock]@Picass0L1ne we do take girls with a huge variety of needs and doing adventurous activities means more likely to need first aid. Yes you should have two adults but a girl with a disability can't always say "I don't want a man doing this". Nor should she have to. Adults have this right and parents should get the choice. Other men, who don't identify as trans, would never be allowed to do this in Guiding, nor to sleep in the same space as girls and women. Again, girls shouldn't have to speak out if they aren't comfortable.[/quote]
@KatieAlcock thank you so much for what you’re doing - I completely agree with your plight.

Could you clarify for me if a child were to say “I don’t want a man doing this” could they be overridden with the this seemingly constant argument that ‘transgender women are women’ therefore it’s not a man doing it? Because if so that terrifies me, my daughter isn’t a GG anyway but that’s the thing that jumped out at me on this post

KatieAlcock · 25/07/2020 15:18

if a child were to say “I don’t want a man doing this” could they be overridden with the this seemingly constant argument that ‘transgender women are women’ therefore it’s not a man doing it?
Under current policy, yes. If the girl's leader believed the male was a woman, she'd tell the girl "this is a woman", and if the girl's leader didn't really believe this, the leader would find herself in the same position as me if she said anything publicly.

But if a girl is uncomfortable with any adult, in Guiding as in life, she's usually ignored. I've led with a couple of adults like this, no fault of their own, just not well matched to the group. You can tell the girls are not quite happy, body language etc., but they never say a word, just don't come back, or I assume tell their parents and ditto.

OP posts:
AllsortsofAwkward · 25/07/2020 15:35

Regardless of the issue should you really posting details of on court case on mn where the media can pick this up.

KatieAlcock · 25/07/2020 15:42

@AllsortsofAwkward and that would be bad because...?

OP posts: