To ask if you are OK with your daughter's subs being spent on this?

[KatieAlcock]

I've just come to update you on my case against Girlguiding, where they expelled me for raising safeguarding concerns and for asking why we had to believe in inner gender identity to be a leader.
Girlguiding have spent AT LEAST £35,000 and probably more like £100,000 of the subs you pay for your daughter to go to Rainbows, Brownies or Guides, on defending a case against me, a committed leader who wants to make sure girls are safe and leaders have freedom of expression.

Full text of my update in the next post so as not to bore you to death!

They have to remain within the law. Being transgender is a protected quality.

Gender reassignment is indeed protected by the EA. Neither OP nor anyone else on this thread has suggested that trans people should be discriminated against.

What OP is saying is that males should not be permitted to shower with and sleep in the same room/tent as females.

For clarity GG allow anyone who says they are female to do this, not merely those who have transitioned- no surgery, hormones or change in presentation is needed.

GG have no safeguarding policy for males on overnight trips because they say they don't allow males.

Yes Rose but you don't have to admit that you are known by different names, for various reasons I have never used the name that is on my birth certificate ... I have had numerous DBS checks over the years and have never had to provide the actual name on my birth certificate.

Thank you for standing up for girls Katie.

When I was a GG I desperately needed that female only space because it was one of the only places where I was allowed and my brother, who sexually abused me for years, wasn't. It was my safe space.

Katie - thank you

THANK YOU

THANK YOU

THANK YOU

this is SO DARN IMPORTANT

So many above have said it eloquently - it is the duplicity of GG, of doing it under the radar, of ignoring basic safeguarding rules ... quite simply, of not putting the safety and rights of their guides BEFORE anyone else's

You encapsulated it beautifully:
But I happen to think it's wrong, unsafe, and illegal.
Yes it is.

So THANK YOU

THANK YOU

THANK YOU

THANK YOU

We all know it cannot be easy - in fact the opposite, enormously stressful for you fighting for something you know is both important and right - putting the greater good before your own

Again thank you - on behalf of all the girls and women in the world, and especially those for whom being a Guide is a sanctuary.... all of them, and particularly those who are becoming excluded by having Guides mixed sex, those that just a few years ago the Guides were keen to reach

@Picass0L1ne we do take girls with a huge variety of needs and doing adventurous activities means more likely to need first aid. Yes you should have two adults but a girl with a disability can't always say "I don't want a man doing this". Nor should she have to. Adults have this right and parents should get the choice. Other men, who don't identify as trans, would never be allowed to do this in Guiding, nor to sleep in the same space as girls and women. Again, girls shouldn't have to speak out if they aren't comfortable.

@mummyoneboy19 , @RunningFromInsanity and all of the rest who have pointed out the inconvenient facts here, save your breath. There are zillions of rabid GC not anti-trans of course, oh no never that people on here with a LOT of time on their hands and they will shout at you and hound you until you realize it’s not worth your time. Go watch something on Netflix or just sit there doing nothing. Your time is better used doing literally anything but engaging with this crew.

I know on MN it can feel like this is a large group of people but actually they just ALL converge on here. Many if not most are not regular MNers. They came to MN for the sole purpose of frothing discussing this topic. But seriously don’t even worry about it, it’s just noise. In real life more and more organisations and people are showing respect and inclusion for all types of people.

Funny how GG show respect and inclusion for men. Not girls who identify as males. That’s true inclusion that is

You have a massive cheek suing this organisation then complaining they are wasting money.

You don't think blowing £33k on procedural stuff they had little chance of winning, just to inflate OP's costs is off? I do.

You don't think blowing hundreds of thousands on a 5k case (instead of sitting down with OP and trying to tighten their safeguarding in a way that everyone's needs are met) is odd? I do.

I also think it's very strange for an organisation which runs on volunteers to take such an aggressive line on criticism of their systems (which is what prompted OP's dismissal).

Yes you should have two adults but a girl with a disability can't always say "I don't want a man doing this". Nor should she have to.

And how many girls, on a camp & being faced with a male who they know they’re expected to view as a woman, would actually have the courage to speak out anyway?

This vicious vendetta against trans people is getting very hard to ignore. I think it's pretty shameful.

GG have no safeguarding policy for males on overnight trips
Actually they do. If Mr Brown Owl or Son of Brown Owl go on a trip they have separate sleeping and toilet facilities. My son went on camp aged 4 and had to use the gents' toilets because he wasn't allowed in the Ladies. There were male Scout leaders on a separate camp at the site so I had to hang around and check he was OK in there/ask them to check on him/keep talking to him.

@mummyoneboy19

So, from what I can work out you’re against trans people being leaders?

And you’re suing GirlGuiding UK because they disagreed with you?

So basically, you’re upset that trans people exist in society and want subs money for “injury to feelings”.

Personally I’m happy they’re fighting this case.

You could've just written that you're full of shit and you'd have saved yourself a few characters.

In real life more and more organisations and people are showing respect and inclusion for all types of people.

All types of people with penises. There, fixed it.

I agree Vivienne.

Jim smith who served time for molesting children can change his name to Barbie Jones. He can apply to become a GG leader and not give his "deadname". Anyone who thinks child abusers are not rubbing their hands with delight at the easier access to children have another think coming.

A thread a few years ago here asked What age were you when you first had a sexually inappropriate thing said or done to you. Hundreds of replies that were overwhelmingly stating they were children. I bet if anyone started a similar Twitter thread the replies would be mostly women and mostly when they were a child. When I was a younger woman I desperately wanted to believe that men who want to abuse children are rare but age and wisdom and experience has shown me quite the opposite.

GIRL guides.
The title says it all.
A safe space for girls.

I hope it remains this way, too.

Well done op for standing against this ridiculous and dangerous situation.

@ShiveringCoyote
Spot on.
Children.

@Ragwort
Exactly. All a DBS says is that at one moment in time this person hasn't been caught.
And even if the form asks for other names, someone who has a conviction under a different name, they may think it's worth the risk of not admitting to it. And they may get away with it. People do.

Thing is we look in the past and see the areas where there have been multiple cases of abuse in different groups by different people. Scouts for example.
People who wanted to abuse boys clearly chose to go into scout leadership to get the opportunity. They didn't just happen to accidentally fall into the role of scout leader, or become a scout leader and then become corrupted. They chose to become a leader in order to abuse.
However most scout leaders volunteered because they wanted to help those same boys.

Equally well here, most transwomen would probably be doing it because they want to help the girls in their care. But if you have a transwoman who wants access to girls it provides an easy access. You could then find, as you found in the past, that men who want access to young girls find that declaring themselves female and volunteering as a guide leader is an easy way of getting what they want.
Yes, you can say that about the women, and it would be true. But statistically many times more transwomen are likely to abuse.

Hi all,

We're going to temporarily close this thread as there are a few things we need to discuss at HQ. We will update as soon as we can - please bear with us.

basically, you’re upset that trans people exist in society and want subs money for “injury to feelings”

Rubbish!
She sued because she rightly thought parents don’t want their girls sharing a tent with boys without their knowledge, and because gender self-ID is open to abuse leaving women and girls very vulnerable to predatory men. Very basic safeguarding.

The only reason that katie is claiming damages is because the courts don't (as far as I am aware) have provision for such a case be brought without a damages award being made. She has said that she has requested the lowest allowable amount.

People CANNOT change sex. It is a physical and biological impossibility.

In order to safeguard vulnerable children - and women - the only safe option ti s use biological SEX as the disguising characteristic - NOT GENDER.

Trans people have the right to live as they wish. They do not have the right to put our daughters at risk - even if the leader is a genuine TW (and many are not) - "she" knows nothing, in practical terms, about such things as periods, and girls may be embarrassed to take private concerns to "her".

#sexnotgender
#TWaremen

I’m bringing in a bit of nostalgia. Back in 2018, a poster solved this entire issue by suggesting that any female guide leader who didn’t want to be in close quarters with a male should simply pack sturdy pyjamas... How could we have forgotten it was that simple?

We're just bobbing on here to let you know that we've now reopened the thread. We had quite a few reports about it and there were a fair few personal attacks that had to be deleted but we're happy for the discussion to remain standing.

Just a reminder to please be mindful of our talk guidelines when posting.

Thanks all.

Thanks so much @LouMumsnet

I’m with the GG on this. Times are changing for the better, and everywhere should become more inclusive.
I assume the GG have background checks on those adults involved - and if so, then I’d say that satisfies safe guarding.