To ask if you are OK with your daughter's subs being spent on this?

[KatieAlcock]

I've just come to update you on my case against Girlguiding, where they expelled me for raising safeguarding concerns and for asking why we had to believe in inner gender identity to be a leader.
Girlguiding have spent AT LEAST £35,000 and probably more like £100,000 of the subs you pay for your daughter to go to Rainbows, Brownies or Guides, on defending a case against me, a committed leader who wants to make sure girls are safe and leaders have freedom of expression.

Full text of my update in the next post so as not to bore you to death!

@Lem0nZest perhaps you could show how my wish to safeguard all children - including trans children - is stirring up anything (other than hopefully improved safeguarding).

@titchy well, quite. I also wonder if they think that all children are exactly like their own? My children are different to your children, and the girls I've had in my units are different to each other and different to both my and your children. Shocking, I know, that what suits Lemon's children doesn't suit all other children.

You are trying to make adults and children fearful of struggling children who have done nothing wrong other than hate the body they were born with. I can’t imagine the pain such children and their parents go through.

It is truly appalling and I’m so glad GG see it for what it is and have acted accordingly. Worth every penny of our subs.

@Lem0nZest

You are trying to make adults and children fearful of struggling children who have done nothing wrong other than hate the body they were born with. I can’t imagine the pain such children and their parents go through.

It is truly appalling and I’m so glad GG see it for what it is and have acted accordingly. Worth every penny of our subs.

No she's not.

She's trying to make sure the children are safe.

If you have NO QUALMS about a male being in a private space with your daughter, then I assume you send her into the men's toilets alone. Would allow a man to do her bra fitting? And presumably you happily send her into the male shared changing facilities at the swimming pool??

The problems come when a male with bad intentions has easy access to girls and children.

All he needs to say is 'im she' and the DBs may not show up anything under her name. Now she has access to girls in private situations.

The safeguarding measures are failing.

Instill can't understand why female MNers are fighting and condoning the removal of safe female only spaces. You've been told multiple times that by allowing makes into GG, many many female children will be denied opportunities, and that unless GG update its safeguarding measures to reflect that if a mixed SEX organisation, then further females will be denied residential opportunities.

Sharing a room with a trans child and other children on a supervised trip is a world away from going into the men’s toilets or changing rooms alone.

Stop trying to whip up predatory fears towards children.

Ok, so you'll to send your 13yo to a 14yo "boys" sleepover then?

And you wouldn't mind that a male bodied 14 yo shares communal shower facilities with your 12yo daughter?

And clearly you're more than happy that if your daughter isn't comfortable with that, then you can comfortably turn to her and say "stop being transphobic and carry in without complaint"

Sharing a room with a trans child and other children on a supervised trip is a world away from going into the men’s toilets or changing rooms alone.

The issue isn’t “sharing a room with a trans child”. The issue is sharing a room with a male child, without no option to object.

with no option to object.

Oh and is she doesn't like sharing that communal shower with a male, in a girls only swim party? then she has to leave and not go swimming 👍

Because that is what's happening in GG.

You are trying to make adults and children fearful of struggling children who have done nothing wrong other than hate the body they were born with. I can’t imagine the pain such children and their parents go through.

This isn't about trans children or adults, its about openness and honesty and clarity. If GG wants to become a mixed sex organisation, why is it not being clearly communicated? Surely they'd want trans children to know they would be welcome there and don't have to miss out because they're not born female? If there was nothing wrong with what they're doing, why the secrecy? I have major problems with the sneaking about, and would have more respect for an organisation that pinned its colours clearly to the mast.

@Lem0nZest

You are trying to make adults and children fearful of struggling children who have done nothing wrong other than hate the body they were born with. I can’t imagine the pain such children and their parents go through.

It is truly appalling and I’m so glad GG see it for what it is and have acted accordingly. Worth every penny of our subs.

Lemon, it's transphobic to suggest trans children are struggling, have dysphoria, or subscribe to the outdated 'born in the wrong body' stereotypes. (I have been told so on twitter so it must be true.)

I note you have no empathy or sympathy for teenage girls being forced to yield their spaces to boys Lemon

or do you think teenage girls should give things up without a murmur because they are female and should already be indoctrinated into the idea that females are the support humans and male feelings are more important?

I am deeply concerned about safeguarding for all children - those who identify as trans (and whose secrets are being kept through this policy, leaving them open to abuse - if you can't tell anyone a child is trans, you leave them vulnerable to groomers) and those who don't (girls who are being asked to lie, being told to do their own safeguarding, and being asked to squash their instincts that say they do not want to share private spaces with men and boys).
There are risks to all children (and some adults) under this policy.

How did Katie's post about not being able to settle her six year old daughter into a group become about spying and stirring up hatred regarding transpeople?

It really seems that you are set on your own agenda here, Lemon.

Even our Guides unit requires parental volunteering and lots of it. Otherwise it would not run. At all.

For LemonZest:

Why should my dd miss out because your dd allegedly can’t attend without you?

I am lost, why would your dd miss out on anything because of this lawsuit? Are you afraid GG is going bankrupt over this? Or, and maybe this is my cynical reading, is you dd a transgirl?

Even if I'm not a leader, I'm very confused (on rereading) why me coming to a few meetings or a sleepover with my DD prevents anyone else from attending. Unless you are worried I'd talk to your daughter during my brief moments in the meeting? In which case perhaps vet all leaders and parents' ideology before sending your DD.

Those focussing on the 'trans' part, its not about being transgender. I am sure not one of the people concerned would have an issue with 'transboys' (who are encouraged to leave, because of their 'gender identity'!). Its simply, making an organization mixed sex, without telling parents. Even now, ask guides if its female only and you will get back a load of waffle about how 'we support all girls'..that does not answer the question you asked.

I would be annoyed as a girls only space is needed in todays world. However I would be less concerned if they were open about it,m instead of trying to change by stealth which seems to be whats going on,.

*If they were just honest, I would be annoyed as a girls only space is needed in todays world. However I would be less concerned if they were open about it, instead of trying to change by stealth which seems to be whats going on,.

If the posting rules have changed, MN really should update their users, especially as you can now be paying membership and lose your subs if the 3 strikes and banned rule is in place.

Also agree with this.

@Lem0nZest

Sharing a room with a trans child and other children on a supervised trip is a world away from going into the men’s toilets or changing rooms alone.

Stop trying to whip up predatory fears towards children.

Well, I'd like to know how it is different.

Potentially under GG rules, your daughter could find herself the only female in a communal changing room. And she'd have no way of complaining, nor would you. 🤷‍♀️

I had to use parent volunteers for my brownies because otherwise I couldn’t meet my supervision ratios - I didn’t have enough volunteer leaders. So my mums were required to sign up for a couple of nights in the year so that our meetings could go ahead. I actually had one mum who was ‘rescue owl’ who I could call on in an emergency if someone else who had signed up on the roster bailed. I mean, I couldn’t force them to. But I asked nicely, explained that it was to meet safeguarding requirements and ensure the safety of their girls, and most mums were happy to.
It’s actually a great way of recruiting future leaders too. Mums come along to volunteer and see what an amazing programme and how many opportunities we provide for our female children, recognize the value of a same sex space, and want to be a part of it.
That’s a very interesting backdrop to informing a parent that they are not able to be present, presumably to safeguard the children from picking up the horrifying information that they are allowed to protect their own rights.
The trauma.
I am a little less aerated over this particular aspect of the case, in all honesty. It’s an individual inconvenience to Katie and her daughter. My concerns are about the overall safeguarding and rights to same sex spaces for all girls and leaders. That’s the case I am supporting, rather than the individual experience for one family. If I was Katie I might be tempted to drop that, making it clear that my priority was the overall situation, because I wouldn’t want them to be able to redirect their energy to that (wasting time) instead of having to focus on the destruction of the entire organization. But she has actual legal advice, and I’m just a pissed off guider, so I’m happy to support whatever they believe the best way to get GGC to address their decision to move to a mixed-sex policy and not allow parents and girls to make decisions about whether or not they have males in their intimate spaces is.

I find it difficult to believe how wrong GG have got this. I completed 3 levels of safe space training last year as a new leader, and it just goes against everything they taught us.

It seems likely that part of the reason for excluding you from meetings may be to do with the way you’re very publicly stirring up other parents to join your cause.

I mean, here you are on a massive parenting forum board, telling everyone repeatedly that GG are wasting enormous amounts from their subs payments, even though you don’t know how much they have spent or where that money has come from.

I get that you have concerns, and it’s right that it should be tested in court.

But you can hardly sue them, then attack them publicly for defending their position, and expect them to let you into their space to mingle with other parents.

This thread literally sets out to turn parents against the organisation, and you’re using the money argument as leverage to get your argument on policy in front of more people.

That’s your choice, but you cannot expect your actions to be without consequence.

Why on earth would they allow you anywhere near their organisation? The leaders are volunteers and can well do without parents in the meetings who are on a mission to agitate dissent.