To ask if you are OK with your daughter's subs being spent on this?

[KatieAlcock]

I've just come to update you on my case against Girlguiding, where they expelled me for raising safeguarding concerns and for asking why we had to believe in inner gender identity to be a leader.
Girlguiding have spent AT LEAST £35,000 and probably more like £100,000 of the subs you pay for your daughter to go to Rainbows, Brownies or Guides, on defending a case against me, a committed leader who wants to make sure girls are safe and leaders have freedom of expression.

Full text of my update in the next post so as not to bore you to death!

*So, from what I can work out you’re against trans people being leaders?

And you’re suing GirlGuiding UK because they disagreed with you?

So basically, you’re upset that trans people exist in society and want subs money for “injury to feelings”.*

The extrapolations going on here are mind boggling.

Not once has the OP said she's against trans people being leaders.
She's said she's against males who identify as girls having unlimited access to girls spaces, including changing rooms and dorms on residential without other parents knowledge, as she believes it's a safeguarding issues

She's suing girl guiding U.K. for unfair dismissal and for not following proper safeguarding.

She's not upset trans people exists, you've made that part up, she's upset that teenage males are having access to single sex spaces, thus putting girls in danger, because they identify as a girl.

The trans lobby are keen to always point out that sex and gender are different and as girl guiding is meant to be a single sex institution I believe OP is right. I don't hate trans people but I do believe women and girls, especially those just reaching and going through puberty, need private, single sex spaces, away from males, for safety and dignity.

"Girlguiding should be for girls and yet Scouts allows boys and if they refused girls they would be slated...."

Scouts was single sex for many years and wasn't criticised for it because girls had their own equivalent, girl guiding. It was in, I think about, the 80's when they have falling numbers and were in danger of shutting down that a vote was taken to allow girls to join to boost numbers. No one forced their way in by claiming to change sex and lots of safeguarding was put in place to ensure both leaders and all children were adequately protected.

86% of girls surveyed in U.K. support trans girls being part of GGs.

86% of toddlers thing it's fine to eat chocolate buttons for tea and baths ae only there for playing.

You see, I can make up stats, and mine sound more true than yours

*@Picass0L1ne

What injuries would need clothes removed?* 🤔

I'm shocked you can't think of this yourself but as you asked I'll give some real life examples that happened to me and my friends over the years on various, guiding, scouting and school residentials.

• slipped in shower and banged head, had to be seen to in a towel
• having to cut t shirts off for dislocated shoulders and broken arms
• burns from being an idiot around the campfire
• physically being put to bed when alcohol was snuck onto trips
• injuries from lake swimming/diving - yes we were in swimsuits but none of us would've been comfortable sitting their exposed and up close with an adult male
• periods starting on trips, including camping

That's just a few that actually happened to me and people I know. There's thousands more possibilities where intimate care would need to be undertaken by someone of the same sex for safeguarding, dignity and comfort reasons.

@Boomclaps

Wait, so GG say that only women can be leaders? Or anyone who ID’s as women can be leaders?

They're being very convoluted about it.

They say only women can be leaders. But they define 'woman' as anyone who identifies as one. Therefore a man self IDing as a woman can be a leader but a gender critical woman (adult human female) who has no gender identity because they believe woman is a sex category term and they just exists as a woman, can't be.

decisionsdecision
This is what GG said on the question

It found that 86% of girls and young women aged 11-21 believe people should not be discriminated against because they are transgender.

So they have made up an answer to suit their narrative.

@FrippEnos have you got any evidence that they have made up this answer?

Just as I can't guarantee that they haven't you cannot guarantee that they have.

They're entitled to defend the case, OP.

decisionsdecision

If the question was

"do you believe in equality for LGBT people"

Then the answer is made up to suit a narrative that they have decided to try and justify.

I guess it depends on what your highest context is and what your sharpest lens is doesn't it?

Rights of the female sex child to safety and dignity?
Rights of the male sex child to safety and dignity?
Rights of the identified gender female child to safety and dignity?
Rights of the identified gender male child to safety and dignity?

Who has more power and more rights? I don't know. But as adults, it is right we are having these conversations and figuring this out. It is our job to and it needs to happen asap.

It found that 86% of girls and young women aged 11-21 believe people should not be discriminated against because they are transgender.

Number one transgender is not a protected characteristic.

Number two, no one is discriminating on the basis of being trans, it's on the basis of being male. The clue is in the fact that women who identify as trans should be included.

Number three, discrimination on the basis of sex is allowed if it is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim, and is entirely congruent with the equality act.

Number four any males without a GRC who are included in guides, is a direct discrimination against any other males, who are excluded.

The comparator for someone without a GRC is other males. If you are only letting them in because they say they're trans, you're discriminating against all other males.

Or, as a previous poster has just said, the question is about as useful and legitimate as asking a toddler what they want for tea.

@Lem0nZest

Canada, USA, Australia..... thankfully all welcome transgender girls and their right to privacy. 86% of girls surveyed in U.K. support trans girls being part of GGs.

The bigots are thankfully in the minority.

You really genuinely think that there are no safeguarding issues in Canada with mixed sex guiding? No issues over programming because.... what? Girls and boys are somehow different when you get on a plane? The situation is exactly the same. No different. Organization says x and the poor bloody guiders are left trying to figure out how to safeguard. The UK is exactly the same. You only have to know how badly VRR has been treated by funding bodies to understand how much harder it is for guiders in Canada to safeguard their youth members. When a rape shelter is defunded as a result of a political campaign (by which I mean led by a politician) because they are the only rape shelter left that does accept male-bodied people, it wouldn’t exactly be the best country to be trying to emulate in terms of women’s (and girls’) sex based rights. This is why it’s absolutely bloody imperative that the legal challenges happen NOW. And I don’t just mean for GG. I mean Maya’s case. Allison’s case. Harry’s case. Sort this anti-women crap out now, BEFORE we roll on off down Canada’s road, and make the social nonsense that is gender the way we organize what used to be sex-based rights that protected women. Canada isn’t exactly the shining example we want to follow in terms of women’s rights. Whether the prime minister says he’s a feminist or not. Blimey. Canada. 😂😂😂😂 I do not think that is the get-out you meant it to be. It’s what the UK needs to avoid at all costs lol. 😂😂

Well quite. Canada produced transwoman, Jessica Yaniv, who wants to help 10-year-old girls insert their tampons, and does this in the girls' toilet.

On a slightly different note, as a right-on woke guider taking a group with a couple of males to Sangam, are you going to tell them? Or are you going to allow the girls from Qatar to share their dorm without mentioning it?
What about the guiders? Are you telling them that you don’t want to share with your transwoman co-guider? Or telling them that your co-guider can’t share with other guiders from around the world?
Are you going to give women and girls the choice as to whether they want to share with a male, or not?
This where it breaks down.
Women and girls have the right to say no. They have the right to feel completely free and open and respected, and to say no.
And GG are preventing the question from even being asked.
It’s an absolute travesty.
You cannot claim to empower young girls and women and gaslight them into a position where they are not allowed to express an opinion.

USA? Sure. Let’s go there. So as a guider in, say, Connecticut, against the backdrop of Andraya Yearwood and Terry Miller trouncing all the weak biological girls who just need to train more, and a legal case that claims that allowing Andraya and Terry to compete against the claimants (Selina Soule and Alanna Smith) goes against the aims and philosophies of Title IX - that was put in place to PROTECT against sex discrimination, you have to negotiate the pathways of programming whilst espousing ‘equality’. Your unit (troop?) has a couple of male youth members, and the girls are discussing sports. Does a male bodied person have the right to win a multi hundred thousand dollar female sports scholarship for university? Is it fair? How are you mediating that discussion?
If Andraya wants to be your co-guider, how are you mediating that discussion?
If you have the choice between Selina and Andraya as a guider, who is espousing the ethos of girl guiding? Who would you say is following the original tenets of the organization? Who is the best role model for your young female children? Do we teach them to stand up for their own rights? Do we teach them that it’s ok to stand up for their rights as long as they don’t oppose male rights, because male rights are more important? (And if a male wants to beat a female and take the money that would have been hers, smile and say congratulations.)
it’s utterly simplistic to point to countries you know nothing about and claim that it’s fine and dandy.
I am enraged by this nonsense.
Agnes Baden Powell would be pissed. And even that misogynist creep with a penchant for younger women Rob would have raised his curmudgeonly eyebrows. (Has he been dumped in the sea yet btw?)

And looking at the three countries mentioned as lovely examples of how to treat people and get along famously with no one asking awkward questions about rights, maybe look a bit harder. In the UK we don’t have an Indigenous population that white colonisers have beaten into submission and segregated out of polite society using law. Those three countries have appalling records on human rights. It is zero surprise that they prioritises the rights of males to access female spaces when their Indigenous populations are treated so badly. Who needs safe drinking water or healthcare anyway? And that’s leaving out the MMIW and residential schools completely. So I guess the UK is just doing it’s thing. Colonizing and treating more vulnerable populations badly.
We fucked the First Nations, we can fuck the women over too. No one is more powerful than the white male in terms of getting exactly what he wants. Countries, sports titles, rape refuges, girl guides...

It gives me the opportunity to give my thoughts a good airing, though. When one is prevented from standing up for sex based rights by an organisation supposed to espouse them, venting one’s spleen is a healthful bonus. I’m grateful for them providing me with the opportunity to share why I will continue to fight for all girls to have a sex based space where they are allowed to formulate their own opinions.
It’s very interesting to me though. Those first girls who rocked up to Crystal Palace and were told no on account of their sex, demonstrated exactly why girls do need their own space. It’s almost antithetical but it gave a really clear view of the misogyny we can still see today. Men calling the shots and dictating what happens to women.
Men deciding that they can’t find enough volunteers so maybe they CAN accept women to do the labour, oh and I suppose we can’t exclude girl children then. The organization will fail without them.
Men deciding that a mixed sex organisation isn’t exclusive enough for them and wanting to join guides.
Women inexplicably (after years of recognizing the need for single sex spaces) ignoring the needs of their own membership to roll over and acquiesce.
So thanks, ploppers. It’s great to be able to talk and discuss how problematic this is. I don’t get the opportunity to do this in the real world, so it’s great that you are letting so many more people hear what actual guiders have to say. Including the ones who agree with the policy, because it gives us a chance to have conversations that we wouldn’t be able to in RL. Because dissenters are removed.
And thanks again, Katie. And Helen.

I’ve really enjoyed the to & fro.
There are lots of workarounds suggested.
All will be fine as long as able bodied “educated” people all sit quietly in the same room and calmly do colouring in whilst Appropriately and fully clothed.
There is no need to do any of the good stuff any more. No fires, no climbing, no hiking independently, no sleeping in odd smelling tents...
Our daughters don’t need any of that.

Before we move away from the topic of how this self-ID works in Canada, I must share this important firsthand account of life for women in the third estate. This is the reality of destroying women's dignity.

www.womenarehuman.com/the-alarm-has-been-sounded-whos-going-to-respond/

I have a girl with cerebral palsy in my unit too. She took part in our overnight team challenge hike (where incidentally we also had an above knee amputee take part on crutches). We take an additional ratio to provide 1-1 support for camps (including for our girls with learning disabilities) and I am a strong advocate that NO girl gets left behind. You give me the challenge as to how to include a girl with a disability and I am up for it. Haven’t found an accessibility issue we can’t overcome yet.
(I still don’t know how the girls got their team round the night hike. I spent the whole night in the radio expecting to get called to a checkpoint. I cried when they crossed the finish line. Fucking right. Girl power! You did that, ladies. I also cried when I told their parents how proud of them I was, afterwards. And I’m crying again now, because fuck, these girls rock. Really.)
Climbing, canoeing, camping, hiking, international travel, check. Disability no barrier. ALL girls welcome.

DH’s scout group has a male scout with very significant additional needs, and his own plan (developed with his parents). He needs more support but can fully take part. Some of the workarounds are very cost effective but sound inelegant; for example DH has had to lie flat himself, to help him inside his tent, feet sticking out, whilst another leader can look in over the top (chaperone). But all this is disclosed and open. There is no secrets to be kept. aaagghhh.

It all depends on how exactly you phrase the question.
Do you believe in equality for transgender people? Of course.
Do you believe in human rights for trans people? Sure.
Do you think transgender children should be discriminated against? No.
Should an 11 year old girl be expected to share a tent with an unrelated 14 yr old male bodied person of any gender? Hell no.

You ask kids if someone should be discriminated against they're bound to say no, that's a question that has an obvious right answer. Start digging about where their actual comfort zone is and you might hear something different. And then ask their parents who have more experience of the bad things that can happen and less teenaged idealism.