To ask if you are OK with your daughter's subs being spent on this?

[KatieAlcock]

I've just come to update you on my case against Girlguiding, where they expelled me for raising safeguarding concerns and for asking why we had to believe in inner gender identity to be a leader.
Girlguiding have spent AT LEAST £35,000 and probably more like £100,000 of the subs you pay for your daughter to go to Rainbows, Brownies or Guides, on defending a case against me, a committed leader who wants to make sure girls are safe and leaders have freedom of expression.

Full text of my update in the next post so as not to bore you to death!

raspberry

Because all the ways it apparently "works" are with trans people all being upfront and honest about who they are not requesting to do anything that lobby groups are training organisations to think that are fine.

It relies on everyone knowing eachother and implied consent that they are OK with it.

Its relying on girls uncomfortable withdrawing themselves.

Its relying on girls telling leaders they arent happy.

Its relying on never going anywhere where they might have to go to the toilets together and if they do placing strangers in the situation you are trying to avoid at the meetings.

How can you say that's working

If you look on Twitter it is a very difference reaction/story

Oh yes, Twitter, that bastion of informed sensible debate and opinion. Really raspberry, when you resort to saying 'Twitter says it's fine' you know you've lost the debate.

With the greatest respect, raspberry, I know you are doing your best, but the guidance from GG does NOT allow for girls to be comfortable and respected. It's just not possible for them to allow transgirls to share with biological girls and not tell parents, and at the same time allow girls to be comfortable and respected. Any time a child's sex is a secret (from girls or from parents) there is a risk of another child being uncomfortable and disrespected.
Likewise the guidance does NOT allow for trans children to be safe. Again, if their sex is a secret, this is something a predator can hold against them. You cannot say "it's unlikely" or "nobody would do that" or "everyone knows they are trans". The guidance does NOT allow for "everyone knowing they are trans".

So either you are not upholding the guidance (if you ask Alice, Amy and Amelia if they are happy sharing with a transgirl, and their parents too, you've broken the guidance) or you are getting children into a situation where their boundaries are breached and where their parents haven't consented to what's happening.

Likewise with adults, you may think "all transwomen are open and honest about their trans status" but there is NO onus on them to be open, under GG guidance. So if you tell your fellow leader "Debbie is coming, you know her, she's trans" then you've breached guidelines. If you don't tell your fellow leader Debbie is sharing a room with you two, you've put your fellow leader in a very uncomfortable situation.

And if you think that "parents won't object" or "leaders should be happy to share with Debbie", is that your decision to make?

There are things that GG has done in the past that I thought "well, that's a bit contradictory, but I'm sure we can make it work in practice". So I totally get where you are coming from - for example, there was some odd guidance on children of leaders where it sounded like if you took a 14 year old child along to help with a group of Rainbows, but the child wasn't a YL, you had to have a separate adult to supervise the 14 year old (I can't remember exactly but it was along those lines). In practice everyone was saying "they've made a mistake, ignore it". But if you do something that's not in the guidelines (e.g. ask parents if they are happy with Alice, Amy and Amelia sharing with a transboy) and something happens, you are liable because you haven't followed GG guidelines.

This is what I said to GG - I cannot follow guidelines that conflict with safeguarding - and that's why they removed me.

I cannot see how you can safely take a transgirl on a camp to be honest without a greater degree of disclosure than the guidelines currently seem to allow. For all parties.
My DD is 13 and in Guides. She should not be responsible for saying she is ok at sharing her tent with a male bodied person.
As her parent I would be furious to find out this had happened after the event if I had sent her away thinking she was just with other girls. What if she had been upset or embarrassed? I doubt she would say something. If she was unaware her friend was trans until the trip and it was revealed in some way, that's potentially traumatic or distressing for all parties.
I have a question for @raspberrydream how do GG protect girls from other girls in their unit? Let me give you an example, not trans related, but probably more common, what if you had a girl who exhibited behaviours that upset the others - talking about, or demonstrating self harm for example. How do you decide who to put her in a tent with and protect the other girls? The self harming girl is herself vulnerable here as well.

The whole point of this is that schools can't legally do that without getting into trouble.
I'm not so sure. Mermaids and stonewall law says they can't legally do that but actual law? I certainly know of schools that use the third space approach successfully but I don't know if they have been challenged.

If you look on Twitter it is a very difference reaction/story

You mean the platform that allows anyone who disagrees with the slogans to be allowed to be threatened with rape and death threats? That twitter? Where activists can’t see that threatening violence against women with their penises is something a female would never.

Mermaids and stonewall law says they can't legally do that but actual law? I certainly know of schools that use the third space approach successfully but I don't know if they have been challenged

Interestingly the toolkits that state that students should pick their facilities according to identity were removed by multiple counties befire they could be legally challenged

We have yet to have a test case.

Granted self ID is not law and chikdren can't have a grc single sex exemptions can be applied even with a grc all these organisations are in fact acting illegally. So whether someone agrees with it or not none if it is legal which should worry people more that it does because they see themselve as above the law.

If you look on Twitter it is a very difference reaction/story

Twitter has actual Nazis on it too, if we're making comparisons. I'm not sure you want to be holding them up as an example here.

What twitter looks like depends on who you follow and who you block.

never said pjs would stop any bad intent however it negates any issues of changing rooms etc and as I've said below it doesn't impact on activities. Our girls will get there early evening do some craft, have some food, watch a movie/campfire sing along and go to bed all whilst in their pjs totally possible and easy to do.

At 14 I would have hated to be in my pjs all evening with male people in the room, whether adults or adolescents. I think you're desperately naive.

I don't go outside in my pyjamas (except into the garden), and wouldn't allow my DCs to travel to an event, spend all evening doing activities in pyjamas then go to bed in the same clothes.

I'm the least worried person you can imagine when it comes to "germs", but that doesn't sound very hygienic.

what if you had a girl who exhibited behaviours that upset the others - talking about, or demonstrating self harm for example. How do you decide who to put her in a tent with and protect the other girls? The self harming girl is herself vulnerable here as well.

As a Leader, I would discuss this situation with the parents of the girl in question and figure something out on a case by case basis.

But we wouldn't be allowed to do this in the case of a transgender girl.

And let's not forget we're taking about adult transgender people too, not just the children.

As a leader, I took a girl who made a suicide attempt two weeks previously on an international trip for two weeks. I liaised with her parents and spoke with her mental health team including therapist prior to making the decision. Of course it was touch and go whether she would be able to travel as she was hospitalized, but I take my responsibilities seriously. I’m a mental health first aider and have previous experience of suicidal teens. I also had a girl travelling with dissociative disorder and we had to ensure they did not share. We of course chose very carefully who shared with whom, and I rotated it through each of our hotels so it wasn’t obvious and so that no one felt excluded or not part of a clique. The welfare of my girls is the highest priority and that is exactly why I will not tolerate the utter lack of safeguarding that involves placing teenage girls in overnight accommodation, showers, and toilets with teenage boys and not being allowed to discuss it with parents. I wholeheartedly disagree with girl guiding being a mixed sex organization. Completely.
While girl guiding is girl led, safeguarding is a priority. I will break the rules to safeguard the girls in my care. Quite happily.
Oh and I’m not a sock. I name changed. I have to lest I get fired or asked to step down from my voluntary roles. I’m not the op.

@complusivesnacker thank you so much for being so compassionate and considerate for putting girls mental health, dignity and lived experiences foremost, in the only organisation left for girls and young women that should be female centric.
Volunteers like you who safe-guard, emphatise and understand girls experiences are worth their weight in gold.

You seem to forget that GG doesn't just encompass your young cosy group of Brownies who only ever have one night away at a time and always somewhere they know and with people they know. The policy has to includes teenagers being away for a week or two, with adults they don't know, peers they don't know, and often places they don't know. Winging it isn't good enough.

I met a couple of guide leaders in the Coop a couple of years age, I said something about them being a bit old to be guides. Anyway one was originally form Wolverhampton but had moved to Canada, the other was born and bred in Canada and they tried to do a regular (I think they said every 2 years) trip. I don't know how common international camps / jamborees are but they do happen.

How does GG policy compare to international policies or even local laws?

Canada, USA, Australia..... thankfully all welcome transgender girls and their right to privacy. 86% of girls surveyed in U.K. support trans girls being part of GGs.

The bigots are thankfully in the minority.

@Lem0nZest

Canada, USA, Australia..... thankfully all welcome transgender girls and their right to privacy. 86% of girls surveyed in U.K. support trans girls being part of GGs.

The bigots are thankfully in the minority.

Source please for your 86%

@Lem0nZest

Canada, USA, Australia..... thankfully all welcome transgender girls and their right to privacy. 86% of girls surveyed in U.K. support trans girls being part of GGs.

The bigots are thankfully in the minority.

Your total failure to engage with any of the safeguarding issues speaks absolute volumes.

@Lem0nZest

Canada, USA, Australia..... thankfully all welcome transgender girls and their right to privacy. 86% of girls surveyed in U.K. support trans girls being part of GGs.

The bigots are thankfully in the minority.

And.... UK girl guides "welcome transgender girls"... I don't get your point

Or are you deliberately missing the point that it's the safeguarding that's the issue?

There is no safeguarding issue. Trans girls are more likely the ones to feel shameful and keep their bodies hidden.

These two individuals are whipping up the “safeguarding’ issue. Doesn’t seem to be an issue round the rest of the world.

I am getting really really tired of people going 'but the poor transgirl, think of them'. No, we need to think of all girls. GG is single sex, that means no trans girls. Tough luck. We don't all get what we want.

Lem0n you are being deliberately obtuse. People have been extremely clear what all of the safeguarding issues are and you are ignoring them.

The vast maj of girls are happy with them being there and the law around the world supports them being there.

Tough luck you don’t get what you want.

@Lem0nZest

There is no safeguarding issue. Trans girls are more likely the ones to feel shameful and keep their bodies hidden.

These two individuals are whipping up the “safeguarding’ issue. Doesn’t seem to be an issue round the rest of the world.

Yes there is. Your assertion about trans girls is unverified and meaningless, but the major point here is that any predatory male who fancies it and can pass a CRB could self declare as a woman and none of the usual provisions GG require for males would apply.

So once again: you can engage with this issue, or you can make it blindingly obvious that you're unable to do so, chuck out a few slogans instead and be assessed accordingly. Those are your choices.

Lem0n they may say they are and not totally understand the implications of this. Look at the most recent yougov poll, most people are supportive of trans identities but get into the detail and ask specific questions it proves that barely anyone truly believes trans women are women.

Even if every single girl were happy with sharing with a trans girl, a fully intact male child has the ability to get a female guide pregnant, that's a fact so we safeguard against it.