To ask if you are OK with your daughter's subs being spent on this?

[KatieAlcock]

I've just come to update you on my case against Girlguiding, where they expelled me for raising safeguarding concerns and for asking why we had to believe in inner gender identity to be a leader.
Girlguiding have spent AT LEAST £35,000 and probably more like £100,000 of the subs you pay for your daughter to go to Rainbows, Brownies or Guides, on defending a case against me, a committed leader who wants to make sure girls are safe and leaders have freedom of expression.

Full text of my update in the next post so as not to bore you to death!

Thanks raspberrydream. I see some of it is applicable but some of it would not be applicable for my local unit and the facilities that the leader has to work with. eg, the group tends to be activity based so already arriving in PJs would not work at all unless they were then told to sleep in the clothes they did activities with. I guess that every unit is different isn't it.

TheFormerPorpentinaScamander

raspberry

See already theres a huge number if restrictions. Sone only really possible if you never go anywhere where there's anyone else. If you are sharing toikets with the public fir example you could be waiting ages for each girl to go separately. Surely you would send them say 2 at a time for safely?

And eveb if you sent them one at a time in a public place you are expecting other women and girls to accept a male bodied person on their space without asking them.

@Winesalot apologies I know obviously every unit works differently but I think it is helpful to know that a unit can run successfully whilst implementing simple measures. It may be that things change slightly but it wouldn't impact on overall experiences just take a little more planning!

And eveb if you sent them one at a time in a public place you are expecting other women and girls to accept a male bodied person on their space without asking them.

I mean surely if someone is identifying as a girl then they would use female public toilets anyway? This isn't a girlguiding only scenario that's just a fact of using public toilets.

thirdfiddle

I would expect a school to have suitable safeguarding and privacy policies in place so a male trans pupil is not sharing girls changing rooms or loos, but has private facilities available if they are not comfortable in the usual male facilities. So that a male teenager is not playing in girls' sporting contests but is able to participate in mixed sex sports and wear whatever uniform options they are happiest in.

The whole point of this is that schools can't legally do that without getting into trouble.

@raspberrydream

It's not policy to have adults stay up all night on residentials, even if in a big hall! Gosh I would not be volunteering to do that. And I've never asked girls to come in pyjamas for a sleepover (we would typically have a pre-supper activity, supper, change and chill, followed by bed and some sleep).

Plus wearing pyjamas is not exactly going to stop an adult with bad intent. You remind me of a poster a while back who suggested that "sharing a sleeping space with a male bodied adult could be got round by wearing sturdy pyjamas".

The examples from divisions/units that have had a trans leader tend to be that the leader has been open and honest with the parents from the outset. However if this was not the case normal GG safeguarding would apply so making sure there is always multiple adults in the room
What if an adult didn't want to share with a man?
Is this man allowed to be First Aider?

Do you talk about periods/run sessions on periods? Would you do so if a transgirl was in your unit?

What do you do if the transgirl says "I won't be with Milly, Molly and Mandy because they called me a boy" and you can't put the transgirl with Farida, Fatima and Flossie because you already know that Farida and Fatima's parents won't allow them to sleep in a room with a boy and Flossie's social worker won't either? Put the transgirl in with Annie, Alice and Amelia whose parents don't know that they are going to share with a boy?

It sounds like your one Muslim member has already been put off by the risks.

Sorry if I've missed this but what are the UK Scouts rules for trans men as leaders or girls identifying as boys?

My reservations about the GG rules would be less about the threat of physical harm than (a) the way natal girls would feel with a self ID man or boy being around them during problematic periods, stripping off or changing for anything but more (b) that neither parents nor girls are allowed to be informed.

I mean surely if someone is identifying as a girl then they would use female public toilets anyway? This isn't a girlguiding only scenario that's just a fact of using public toilets

Well yes of course it is. People are fighting all this stuff. Not just the gg issue.

You still ahe a code of conduct in public surely? So if you take steps not to allow your own kids not to pee together because of the biological differences and your whole set up is geared towards acknowledging these differences and accommodating them in secret then why woukd you go against your own.policies outside of your building and put someone.else in the very boat you are avoiding yourself?

@KatieAlcock starting with your last point. This was well before there was any inkling of this policy so completely unrelated I'm afraid.

I didn't say it was policy to stay up I said you tend to find you stay up all night anyway I don't think any of our leaders have ever slept on a sleepover situation. We all sleep beforehand as we know it doesn't happen whilst we are there.
I never said pjs would stop any bad intent however it negates any issues of changing rooms etc and as I've said below it doesn't impact on activities. Our girls will get there early evening do some craft, have some food, watch a movie/campfire sing along and go to bed all whilst in their pjs totally possible and easy to do.

In the cases of tents etc leaders very rarely share tougher or have the tents with separate sections in them. We always use the most experienced leader as first aider and that tends to be the same person over and over again so there wouldn't even be a discussion over first aider etc and if you were organising a camp you simply make the decision of first aider before you left. However no issues here with a trans woman as a first aider as our first aider tent has multiple separate sections and another adult would be present anyway.

We used to run sessions on periods but found the girls didn't like them. When they join we now give in their welcome pack a little note that explains about our box should they need it in the time they are with us and that we are all available to chat should they want too. But I wouldn't have any issue running a session with a trans girl as we have always run them as a raising awareness session with information put in.

It is always a challenge assigning rooms as the girls change their minds 15 times a day when it comes to who they want to share with etc which is why we stopped it in the first place. In your scenario if the trans girl is friends with Alice then yes she would be put in with Alice. We have girls from all over so it wouldn't be unusual that Alice's mum doesn't have anything to do with Annie's mum and the girls would never mix outside of the session.

In your scenario if the trans girl is friends with Alice then yes she would be put in with Alice

So yes you would have mixed sex sleeping? So its up to Alice to say of she's uncomfortable or not and Alice will never get to share with any of her other friends if she ends up being the only one "comfortable " with sharing a mixed sex room.

Why would you put a girl in that position ? Why would you pit the trans girl in that position?

@SarahTancredi to be honest I only remembered the name Alice by Alice I meant the group that Katie said which was Alice Annie and Amelia.

As I've said three times now my girls always have rooms assigned and I've had no complaints as of yet! They only go into them for sleeping it's not like they are sent there for activities etc. We've never had a complaint or even a comment we do so much stuff during the day that by the time bed comes around they are exhausted and go normally straight to sleep.

Of course you haven't becuase girls do not speak up.

That's kinda why single sex spaces are so important cos for once they don't have to. For once they are the one's considered.

@SarahTancredi please don't be so offensive and rude.
This is my point myself and pp have given solutions etc but you aren't willing to listen.

my girls always have rooms assigned and I've had no complaints as of yet!
And I've always done that too but I've never had to work out how to assign a room to a boy while not being able to ask or tell the parents whether their daughter can share with a boy.
You're relying (and it's not your fault, it's how GG is set up) on best case scenarios in this respect.
Other aspects of safeguarding in GG are relying on worst case scenarios as it should be (for example, no 1:1 with adults and children).
But safeguarding in all areas should be relying on worst case scenarios.
It should be relying on all adults NOT being of good will and all trans adults NOT being open and honest.
It should be based on teenage transgirls being predatory (unlikely but possible) or just saying they are trans to get in a tent with their girlfriend (ditto) or not being savvy enough to pack their own condoms (and you'll hopefully be aware we've been allowed to pack these for distribution on mixed camps for some years now, when parents KNOW their daughter is going on camp with Scouts).

It should be based on you not knowing that a parent or girl doesn't want to share with a boy, just because they don't, or because they don't want to disclose trauma, or frankly because they signed up for a girl-only group.

It should be based on girls getting up in the night (not "they never do"), on girls sneaking back to their tent in the day (not "they are so busy") - on the MOST unlikely scenario.

It always seems daft when we tell a parent helper they mustn't take their own daughter to the toilet on their own but it is, as I say, a safeguarding issue based on the worst case, unlikely, scenario.

Whats offensive about saying girl's don't speak up.

They don't.

That's a fact. There are many threads on MN with many posters saying that they never bothered reporting anything becuaee no one believs them or they were blamed etc.

You "solution" requires girls speaking up.

The solution should be not putting them in the position on the first place

@KatieAlcock it's clear we won't agree but I hope that I've given some evidence that it can and does work. There is nothing more I can say to you in regards to this as you have to be flexible and you are not willing to be.

you have to be flexible and you are not willing to be.

Safeguarding is not and should not be 'flexible'.

But we already have one person who consulted on the guidebce who verita found incompetent. Who also had to step down from their positions due to links with paedophiles.

And who subsequently volunteered with another youth group. And have now been let go from that as a result of safeguarding issues.

And also their father, who was convicted of raping and torturing a 10-year-old girl (whilst themself identifying as an eight-year-old girl). And was also a volunteer scout leader. Among other volunteer roles.

www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/coventry-captive-girl-attic-torture-den-david-challenor-coventry-a8502991.html%3Famp

I'm not sure how anyone can argue with the logic here. There is, apparently, not an issue with the sexual abuse of girls in the girl guides.

As, up until now, it has been female only.

This map, posted by a pp above, shows the shocking extent of the abuse involved in scouts. Which is not female only.

Every single one of those abusers can now have two places in which to abuse, instead of one. Except, this time, parents have no chance of being told the risks.

And, the people who are claiming transphobia are trying to work their own agenda. Given that the OP is quite happy for any trans person to join, either on the basis of their female sex, or if the guides acknowledge that it makes the organisation mixed sex. And therefore parents and girls alike, can give their consent.

The entire basis for this problem is that the trans ideology requires validation, which has to involve secrecy.

Therefore, the guides cannot call men who identify as women, male. They cannot say it's mixed sex, because the validation flies out the window.

The awful thing is, they may decide to avoid the issue by ending up officially being mixed sex.

It certainly wouldn't surprise me that they would rather sacrifice an entire nationwide girls' group, than decline to validate a small section of males.

@Roseburn safeguarding is not flexible however you can run your meetings flexibly whilst upholding safeguarding and including trans girls.

I didn't say it was policy to stay up I said you tend to find you stay up all night anyway I don't think any of our leaders have ever slept on a sleepover situation. We all sleep beforehand as we know it doesn't happen whilst we are there.

My dd went away with GG for weeks at a time - are you really suggesting none of the leaders slept for the whole week...? Cos that's a whole different safeguarding issue....

You seem to forget that GG doesn't just encompass your young cosy group of Brownies who only ever have one night away at a time and always somewhere they know and with people they know. The policy has to includes teenagers being away for a week or two, with adults they don't know, peers they don't know, and often places they don't know. Winging it isn't good enough.

How?

You just confessed to mixed sex sleeping that's against safguarding regs and protects neither the gorls or the transgirl

Reliance on speaking over practice of procedures is not safeguarding

@titchy if you read what I said I said in the scenario of a sleepover. This indicates one night. I work with rainbows and guides so have experience of both.
This is exactly what I said come up with working solutions get told you're wrong even though units have worked like this/do work like this and shouted down. There is no more to say I have experience/working advice but it's not good enough because you have made up your mind.
It's mumsnet all over. If you look on Twitter it is a very difference reaction/story

The policy has to includes teenagers being away for a week or two, with adults they don't know, peers they don't know, and often places they don't know. Winging it isn't good enough.

And it also has to include 5 year olds who may not be 100% toilet trained, girls with moderate to severe disabilities, girls with mental health issues or a history of abuse, and girls from religious backgrounds.

And that's just on the "we have a range of girls with different needs who need to be comfortable or they will leave quietly" end, leaving aside the "predators will find a way to predate" end.

Thank you @KatieAlcock for standing up for girls. I have donated and will do again.
@raspberrydream I think it's really telling that you cant see beyond your own circumstances, everything you say is, it hasn't happened or doesn't apply to us, works fine for us, you seem to wilfully ignore the fact that many girls will be too embarrassed to speak up if they feel uncomfortable, your policies potentially force them into situations where they are either too scared/embarrassed to speak up or feel forced to comply with a situation they are not comfortable with. Girls should not be taught that their feelings don't matter, they should be empowered to speak up for themselves. Why do you feel it is you place to give away their privacy and dignity? As adults we should be protecting them not giving away their rights.