To ask if you are OK with your daughter's subs being spent on this?

[KatieAlcock]

I've just come to update you on my case against Girlguiding, where they expelled me for raising safeguarding concerns and for asking why we had to believe in inner gender identity to be a leader.
Girlguiding have spent AT LEAST £35,000 and probably more like £100,000 of the subs you pay for your daughter to go to Rainbows, Brownies or Guides, on defending a case against me, a committed leader who wants to make sure girls are safe and leaders have freedom of expression.

Full text of my update in the next post so as not to bore you to death!

@SarahTancredi I think you may find that girls hate going to the toilets at school regardless of whether they are mixed sex or not. School toilets tend to be grim and disgusting. I hated going to the toilet at school and if I had to go I went during lesson time because I knew there wouldn't be a queue. I don't think that can or should be used as an example.

They dont go to the papers or bring legal action about that though do they?

A teenage girl was responsible for multiple counties removing guidance that advocated for shared facilities. If its so above board and legal then why was it all removed before it got to the courtroom?

Indeed. Not one of the adult females here say they're even willing to use male spaces themselves, let alone their female children

I'm wondering of they think they can say yes because it won't affect them or they think it all sounds crazy it cant possible be true.

But it is true.

Schools etc are being told that mixed sex facilties are all good. Do mot renove the trans child the other kids must find alternatives if they are uncomfortable.

Better hope these posters don't have children with SEN because they thet will be given clothing etc and targeted behind their backs.

We already have had politicians on TV and radio claiming sex doesn't exist. Babies are born without sex and that rapists belong in womens prisons etc

How they can not be aware of whats going on or perfect fine with schools keeping them in the dark re there own child i dont know.

Thing is they have done what everyone else has done. Backed themselves into a corner where the only option is to say yes they are OK with it now because otherwise they are the very bigots they claim we are

"Inflammatory rhetoric inferring that trans volunteers are predatory peadophiles. You have no evidence that any are, not one."

That was my post you quoted and it didn't infer anything of the sort..it didn't infer anything at all actually, it clearly stated that men will do anything to get access to victims.
Which is proved time and time again.
Which you can find out the grotty details of even if netflix is the only media you consume.
You would have to be living under a bridge not to know this.
Jesus christ how thick are some people.
I dont want to wait for evidence that someone is a danger to my sister or my child or anyone's child before we do basic checks as a minimum.
Thats a free for all.
Thats not safeguarding.
My child's safety is more important than mens feelings.
My right to protect my child as I see fit is more important than mens feelings.
GG policy is taking away my right as a mother to protect my child and make informed decisions about their safety and wellbeing.
Thats not ok.
Thats what the case is about.

I completely support you Katie, and really hope you win.

For me, the idea that safeguarding principles can be ignored in case it hurts someone’s feelings is really outrageous. I’m a teacher. I’m not a danger to any children - I know this completely. But I still submit to DBS checks, refuse to keep children’s secrets and drive straight past a child walking in the rain rather than offer a lift to school. I was excluded from supervising a school residential a year or so ago because they needed a male teacher due to the number of boys on the trip. I didn’t get all huffy and claim it’s not fair cos I’m not a danger and could safely supervise their sleeping and changing. We all have to follow the rules, because if we allow “but I’m not a risk” as a get-out clause then obviously some predators will take advantage of that.

One of the most common safeguards for older children and teens in mixed-sex environments is sex-segregated toileting, changing and sleeping facilities, with supervision of those facilities done by a same-sex teacher. Partly to reduce the risk of physical harm to children and partly for their dignity and privacy. Sometimes the segregation is inconvenient. Like when I’m on duty but have to find a male member of staff because I’m pretty sure the boys are up to mischief in their toilets, so I have to give up half my break to sort out girls playing up in theirs because the on-duty teacher is a man. But we do it anyway, because the safety, dignity and privacy of the children in our care is more important than our mild inconvenience.

Anyone who either doesn’t understand why the rules are in place, or thinks they should be ignored to save “hurt feelings” has no business anywhere near vulnerable children.

Please help me understand here. I understand but do not agree with the camp/toilet situations as I feel there are plenty of ways this could be addressed but understand that whatever I say you will disagree. However talking about abusers etc we are talking about 14 year olds here. The chances and examples of a 14 year old boy deciding to become a trans girl to access a victim is absurd. Or is the grievance more to do with trans leaders? Do any of you work with trans leaders yourselves or have a trans rainbow, brownie or guide in your units?

Why does something have to have happened in order for it to be deemed OK ?

Do you not think that girls should be able to change away from those with male body?

Do you realise that the guidance ( consulted on by one one who has been found by verita to be incompetent re safeguarding. There was an official investigation) says that the trans chikd is not to be removed. If a girl in uncomfortable then they have to go elsewhere. This "management " you cite , what would it be? You CANNOT make the trans child change showier etc separately. Do you understand that? What managenis there that doenst seoarate the kids ?

@SarahTancredi throughout the whole thread PP have spent time and effort explaining how it can and has worked in practice. However if you've made up your mind me repeating it will do nothing.

Would you expect a school to inform you if they had a trans pupil in the school year?

It "works" by implied consent and anyone not comfortable sharing with a male turning down opportunities to go on camps or do activities.

Id hardly call that working

I'd expect to be told if my dd sharing changing rooms with males yes ...

It should not be on a teenage girl to remove themseoves from situations against the desires of the adults who should know better

Raspberry, with all due respect the one person who claimed that they had seen it in practice was breaching confidentiality at best and exaggerating at worst so I'm not entirely sure their account should be believed.

raspberrydream

Would you expect a school to inform you if they had a trans pupil in the school year If my daughter was expected to sleep in the same cabin/tent/room while at camp with a transgirl, yes. I do, whatever the age. If my daughter was expected to be naked in the changing rooms with a transgirl, yes. I do expect to be told.

If they are merely in class and I was confident that the safeguarding guidance was being applied, no, I wouldn't.

There is also a need to allow our daughters to have privacy and dignity, even when they might be safe otherwise.

whatever I say you will disagree

This is incredibly insulting. Personally, when I entered the whole debate it was to try to find a way to respect the rights of all. I’m still open to suggestions. All of the ones I’ve heard, though, either fail of safeguarding, or require women and girls to exclude themselves from female-only spaces. Neither of those things are acceptable. If you think you have a solution I / others may not have considered please do suggest it.

As for your “but it’s 14yo children, not abusers” argument - some 14yo are abusers. And no, I don’t think it is acceptable to tell girls to take the risk and we’ll just prosecute afterwards. In fact, the whole point of safeguarding is to prevent the Bad Things happening as far as we can.

throughout the whole thread PP have spent time and effort explaining how it can and has worked in practice.

I have read and reread this thread, could you please point out where this has been explained sufficiently (and not by the poster who was rather blasé about other elements of safeguarding)? As a parent of a guide, I would like to know how other units have navigated this please.

I’m still open to suggestions. Me too! I keep asking for studies and stats and I never get anything that allays any concerns I have.

some 14yo are abusers They are indeed, although it is very often ignored. I am horrified at the increased rates of rapes in schools. And this is with safeguarding in place.

I remember reading that one prominent activist discussed how they were having sex on a guide and scout camp when they were 14 or 15.

shall we also remember that outing a trans person is hate crime so whatever the solution is it cannot involve outing them by making them change separately.

And even if the 14 year olds aren't abusers, which a vast majority aren't, teenagers experiment and I worry about a guide coming home pregnant because the GG haven't safeguarded properly.

However talking about abusers etc we are talking about 14 year olds here. The chances and examples of a 14 year old boy deciding to become a trans girl to access a victim is absurd.

I have a 14 year old daughter, who like many 14 year old girls is private about her body. Last year a school near us considered making its toilets and change rooms more “inclusive” and dependent on gender identity rather than sex. I think it may have been a private school, I can’t remember, but it was in the local paper. (Everything stayed same sex in the end though).

My daughter was horrified at the thought of changing next to male bodies and asked, “But how do the girls get changed?”

14 year old may seem very young and naive to us but to themselves they aren’t. A 14 year old girl who attends GG is under the impression that she is in a female only environment. It’s not fair to them to introduce males into that space.

I just asked almost 14 year old ds if he thinks Trans-girls should be allowed to join GG and share tents with girls. He thought about it for a few mins and then said "so a boy could pretend to be trans just so he can get into a girls tent?"
If a teenager can work out that that's a possibility then why can't an adult?

Not sure if I should be impressed or worried that he thought about it that way!

And im just copy and pasting my post from earlier for those that missed it. Please tell me why young me/ the girls who are me 20 years later don't need, and deserve, that girls only space.

Brownies/Guides was one of the only places I felt 100% safe as a child/teen. My brother raped me. It started with sexual abuse and ended with pregnancy. I never felt 100% safe at dance classes as we had a couple of boys there. They also ran judo lessons in the same building. Dads/brothers were there. All my friends had brothers and/or dads at home. Even though none of these men ever touched me I was very aware that they could.

GG was my 100%safe space. No boys. No men. No penises. Just girls and women. A safe haven for a traumatised child.

If a teenager can work out that that's a possibility then why can't an adult

They can and they got themselves into positions to be able to influence /consult on the policies.

Now 99 percent of people are not predators so will not look at it or think about it that way.

I cabt say too much or I'll be deleted or banned.

But we already have one person who consulted on the guidebce who verita found incompetent. Who also had to step down from their positions due to links with paedophiles.

There was a case with a man who was involved in the Scottish prison policy too.

There are more.

The Former thank you for sharing your history again.

@Winesalot I have to say that our division/county training you real life examples for training purposes as well so I don't think it's unusual if you're referring to Squids example? As long as relevant permissions are given you are able to share but anonymously and normally a number of years after said child has left the organisation. However please see what we have put into place on the chance we get a trans girl below:
In terms of toilets our church hall only has one toilet and one disabled toilet so there is no 'issues' there. However if we did go to somewhere with single sex toilets we only let one girl go at a time (obviously because this is what they are used to) otherwise they are used as a meeting place and everyone seems to go at once.
In terms of camps we tend to organise the 'rooms' anyway so with examples of abuse victims or religious needs we would organise so that any conflicts would be sorted. I could see further down that Katie used the example of a big sleepover with everyone in the same room. I'm not sure about her but leaders don't tend to get any sleep on these things so there will always be 2 adults awake and present at all times. Again it would be a case of thinking outside the box and creating zones in the hall and separating and children that needed to be through that whilst they are sleeping. We tend to ask our girls to come already dressed in pjs so there would be no changing etc happening. I can't in good faith answer the religious question as the only devout Muslim girl we had didn't come on camps but instead joined us for the day trips. Or we were lucky enough to have a back room at our hall which we could have used for her.
All of our local swimming pools don't have single sex changing rooms but have a series of individual cubicals so we've never had any issue but again we'd ask them to come dressed in a swimming costume already and parents to be there when we finished to get their children dressed and sorted.

In terms of a trans leader we have the following:
The examples from divisions/units that have had a trans leader tend to be that the leader has been open and honest with the parents from the outset. However if this was not the case normal GG safeguarding would apply so making sure there is always multiple adults in the room although we wouldn't encourage a situation where the girls are getting dressed or going to the toilet with an adult in there anyway but rather we wait just outside.
In terms of the period question we have thought of this and implemented a period box that we pop in the toilet which has a couple of spare bits of underwear, towels, tampons, bags and written instructions in case it's a first time etc. Of course they can come and talk to any leader they wish but many girls wouldn't want to so we've sorted that issue.
In terms of camps etc our leaders don't sleep in with the girls anyway and we wouldn't advocate that in any situations as it's just not needed.

Yes sorry. I meant the people on this thread who are saying it doesn't happen and that we are all transphobic. I should have been clearer but it's a very emotional subject for me.

Would you expect a school to inform you if they had a trans pupil in the school year?

I would expect a school to have suitable safeguarding and privacy policies in place so a male trans pupil is not sharing girls changing rooms or loos, but has private facilities available if they are not comfortable in the usual male facilities. So that a male teenager is not playing in girls' sporting contests but is able to participate in mixed sex sports and wear whatever uniform options they are happiest in.