To ask if you are OK with your daughter's subs being spent on this?

[KatieAlcock]

I've just come to update you on my case against Girlguiding, where they expelled me for raising safeguarding concerns and for asking why we had to believe in inner gender identity to be a leader.
Girlguiding have spent AT LEAST £35,000 and probably more like £100,000 of the subs you pay for your daughter to go to Rainbows, Brownies or Guides, on defending a case against me, a committed leader who wants to make sure girls are safe and leaders have freedom of expression.

Full text of my update in the next post so as not to bore you to death!

@Witchcraftandhokum

titchy I say this isn't a safeguarding issue as measures could be taken where this wouldn't happen. The same way that schools, including my own, have managed school trips with trans students.

Did they allow a trans boy to sleep in a dorm with 9 males? Didn’t they allow that trans in access to the boys showers?

How DID they manage that residential trip?

My daughters are no longer involved with Guiding. Katie's case was partly the reason behind this - because I don't trust any organisation whose response to someone raising a safeguarding concern that is to kick them out and call them a bigot. I also wasn't comfortable knowing that my kids were involved with an organisation that would basically lie by omission in the most benevolent view of it - to parents concerned about their daughter's welfare - and yes, if my daughter was sharing a tent with a penis-owning person I would like to know so I could at the very least pre-empt things and be aware! I do not think that that is an unreasonable thing to want to be forewarned about!

There were other issues that led to my kids moving over to Scouting - mainly with the leadership of the unit they were involved in and one particular volunteer - but it's a better fit for my kids - and the sexes are very clearly separated when it comes to tents etc. It's just better run in our locality as well.

Incidentally: adults running/heavily involved in Beavers - 2 F, 1 M; Cubs 1 F, 2 M and no idea who does the Scouts.

It isn't anti trans. If a female bodied guide was questioning her gender the new Guides seem to want to remove her
. Is that really better?
Id rather have a sex based group where you could present however you like!

@SeasonFinale

The reality is that you brought the case and they are having to defend the case and spend money to do so.

Whilst they did not deal with the recent hearing appropriately and have a costs order against them when you lose you will be liable for their costs and GG should be able to recover 2/3 to 3/4 of their costs from you. I hope you have deep pockets OP.

MN - why is yet another anti trans thread allowed on the main boards. Can it not be moved over to where all the other anti trans stuff is kept?

It isnt transphobic to want female only spaces :/

It's just annoyed me that folk think trans people are a risk. Then the police should deal with it if they are.

Or, we can have secure safeguarding procedures that reduce the likelihood of something happening.

Or we can acknowledge the feelings and vulnerability of females. My 19 year old son isn't a risk to anyone. But I don't want to shower in front of him. Privacy matters.

Or maybe you think all gym showers should be open to both sexes. After all it's annoying that folk think men are a risk, and if they are then the police should deal with it.

madwoman1ntheattic you sound awesome! I would love my teenage DD to join your group.

@Viviennemary

So are people saying a man would deliberately present as trans to get access to young girls. I wouldn't have thought that very likely. But I suppose not absolutely impossible. OP what ruling do you want here. That trans people need to declare their biological sex before being accepted as a leader or being allowed to join or not being allowed to join the guides at all. A genuine question. I can't see how this is going to be solved.

Why do you think the DBS system was brought into being? So that anyone who wanted to work with children or vulnerable people were screened for suitability, and ensure they had not already committed certain crimes against those people. This was introduced because far too many people, most often men, were committing crimes against children in settings such as schools, youth groups, sports clubs etc. Someone with a GRC is not required to reveal their identity pre transition. How many of these crimes need to be committed before action is taken? 10, 500, 1000? If a transwoman wishes to become a GG Leader, why should people not know they are trans? It's nothing to be ashamed of. Why keep it secret?

So are people saying a man would deliberately present as trans to get access to young girls

Predatory men have done a lot of things to gain access to victims - they became teachers , priests, coaches, scout leaders, doctors and yes, some presented as trans to enable their abuse of women (Karen white and Jessica yaniv come to mind). Some dressed as women to gain access to female spaces to plant hidden cameras. At least one hid in the tank of a porta potty to spy on women ffs but somehow they would never claim to ID as a woman, thats going to far Youre living in a dream world if you think this wont be exploited.

It's just annoyed me that folk think trans people are a risk. Then the police should deal with it if they are.

I think you'll find people on here think men are a risk. On the basis there is a massive amount of evidence that they are.

Which country do you live in, out of interest, that men who rape children are regularly caught by the police and then dealt with appropriately by the courts? Because most of us are posting from the UK where men disproportionately get away with it and where there isn't adequate provision in terms of ongoing psychological support for victims when they are able to speak out about it.

OP You are an absolute hero and you have my full support. Thank you for your courage.

And what about normal teenage exploration? I really don't want my DD returning from camp pregnant because she's been experimenting with the girl with a penis in the other bunk.

I'm an afab woman who identifies as enby, but doesn't need to make a song and dance about it in real life.

How I feel about my own gender has absolutely no bearing on my capabilities as a trusted leader and safeguarder.

Why would anyone care about the fact you identify as an 'enby?' Really.

Statistically you pose a tiny risk to the children in your care simply by virtue of your sex (I was sexually assaulted by a woman when I was a child too. I'm still comfortable saying you pose a tiny risk). The fact you don't like the stereotypes associated with your gender is meaningless and irrelevant to the job you do. GG is supposed to be single sex and your sex is female, whatever your feelings about your own identity. Females very rarely sexually assault children.

I think you'll find people on here think men are a risk. On the basis there is a massive amount of evidence that they are. - In a nutshell.

Madwoman thank you on behalf of those girls for running what sounds like a really excellent, informative group. I could have done with a role model like you when I was growing up.

And thank you to the OP for standing up for the safeguarding of girls.

Whilst they did not deal with the recent hearing appropriately and have a costs order against them when you lose you will be liable for their costs and GG should be able to recover 2/3 to 3/4 of their costs from you. I hope you have deep pockets OP.

The outcome of this case is not in any way a foregone conclusion. And no you don't get to corral threads you don't like. This is an important issue for many people and a relevant case.

Why would anyone care about the fact you identify as an 'enby?' Really.

Yes, it's not anything to do with gender identity of any kind, it's about sex.

@SeasonFinale what do you think people should do who have safeguarding concerns? Stay home and cross their fingers?

Again the misconception that this doesnt happen in scouting and school trips. Are there any actual cases of problems occurring?

Also, no leader whether male, female or undecided should be sleeping in the same room as children.

In the GG own guidance it says that if adults are sharing rooms with under 18s two adults must be present

And that boys and volunteers who are men must have separate sleeping and bathing arrangements

www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/running-your-unit/events-and-going-away/going-on-residentials/

From that I assume that leaders do share with children on occasion

And that if GG says TWAW they do not come under the need for separate sleeping & bathing facilities

You have it exactly right @Kit19.
I've been up in the night with a sick Brownie who needed her spacer, when we were all in one big dorm. I didn't wake the other leader because I assumed I could wake the Brownie's mate in the next bed. As it turned out the girl was OK and asleep before her neighbour stirred so I gave up. Anyone wanting to groom a girl could easily get her on her own, or with a friend.

I assume therefore under current guidance a TW and a female leader could share a room with girls under 18

And that parents would not be informed in advance?

@SeasonFinale

The reality is that you brought the case and they are having to defend the case and spend money to do so.

Whilst they did not deal with the recent hearing appropriately and have a costs order against them when you lose you will be liable for their costs and GG should be able to recover 2/3 to 3/4 of their costs from you. I hope you have deep pockets OP.

MN - why is yet another anti trans thread allowed on the main boards. Can it not be moved over to where all the other anti trans stuff is kept?

This isn't about being anti trans.

This is about safeguarding.

Under the current guidance of the GG's it is possible for a "girl" to get another girl pregnant.

"Ereshkigalangcleg
I'm fairly sure that Girl Guides prides itself on being a single sex organisation and is using one of the sex based exemptions to do so. If they have MTF trans people without GRC but don't allow other male people they may be legally discriminating against the other male people on the grounds of sex."

I do wonder if they sent so many lawyers to the hearing (&asked for extra hearings etc) as a way of making Katie drop the case before it begins - because as publicity grows people will start to ask questions. Parents (&others) will hear about the policy & want to know how it's safe, but also exactly how its lawful, & whether it indirectly discriminates against some children & leaders.

Im so please Katie is making this stand for women. Thankyou so much for doing this.
(Does JK Rowling know...)

Don't know all the details
Haven't read entire post
Leaders like teachers should not express opinions or politics at all
If a "boy" wants to go to girl guides he should be allowed no fuss he is a child not a sexual predator, any inappropriate behaviour is dealt with in case by case basis like any inappropriate behaviour should be dealt with
On balance of probability a trans child is not going to be more of a problem than say a bully, racist or aggressive child so live and let live calm approach should be adopted
And no subs should be spent with on this case, but it won't be subs they will have insurance to cover costs