AIBU to be furious at DH over hidden debt?

[Worrywart2020]

I’ve NC for this as am fairly confident DH’s family prowl MN and I don’t want to add fuel to the family gossip flames

My DH and I have been talking at some length about moving house, We have decided we would like to do so before it would alter DC’s schooling and don’t want to cause more upheaval by moving once settled

So we’ve been doing the usual, scouting Rightmove and having a look around desired areas - We’ve even been to look at a few houses (drive by areas not internal viewing due to Covid) and have found a house we really love (but would be at our top top stretching ourselves budget unless we could somehow persuade them to take 10K less which is obviously unlikely)

However today we have hit a full brick wall, Discussing mortgages with DH and I decided to use a mortgage calculator to see realistically if/what we could borrow and go from there - Turns out DH has CONSIDERABLY more debt than I had realised, I knew he had previously gotten a loan to consolidate credit card debt etc but as we share the mortgage/childcare fees from a joint account (paid in to by separate accounts) I had no idea of the full scope

Turns out DH is nearly 50K in debt!
I have now point blank turned down the idea of moving because realistically we couldn’t afford anything more than we pay now as DH earns significantly more than me (although we both work FT) and his credit score is ultimately crippled and he is now moping around saying he feels awful and didn’t know how to tell me etc

I feel so so angry and honestly heartbroken, I don’t know why he has hidden this from me for so long

He doesn’t seem to realise the massive implications this has on both of us and has said that he felt unable to tell me because “he should be able to provide for his family” but that he’s been drowning in debt taking out loan and loan for years

I know it would be unreasonable of me to really lose my temper with him but right now I am so so angry with him so I’ve come upstairs under the guise of tidying to just get away from him

I don’t know what to do, I haven’t a clue where to start - Our house is in no danger, we have never defaulted on a mortgage payment (I have checked) and as far as the bank are concerned are model customers, I could pick up the slack there if it did become an issue but there is no possibility of me being able to pay off all of his bills

AIBU to be utterly furious? Or really should I just accept the situation for the next few years at least (and know we will have to significantly tighten our belts to weather this storm) without protest?

My DH (although clearly useless with money) is genuinely a lovely guy, a good father and we have a very happy marriage - but right now I could murder him, I feel too that I’m more angry with the situation because we had been actively looking online at properties and (I thought) planning our future together- all the while he’s been hiding this massive issue rendering the whole thing IMPOSSIBLE!

(I feel the need to point out too that there is no seedy undergoing here, the debt has been accrued by seemingly living far beyond his means for years but without showing this to me, neither of us have had pay rises in the last 6 years and the outgoings have gradually taken over the incoming)

The thing that would upset me the most would be if the equity in your current home had to pay off these debts meaning you had to compromise on the house you would like to move into. We had negative equity in a property in the 90s and had to pay a lot of it off this way and it still rankles ( shouldn't have moved really , but it worked out ok in the end but we couldn't have the house we really wanted to buy ) not the same thing I know, but it will hurt and you might resent that he had these debts and didn't discuss any of it with you when it was only a few thousand and you could have helped him to pay it back or get some advice earlier on. Your obviously good with money, but he chose to hide it from you hoping it would sort itself out , which isn't good.
I'm sorry your in this situation. You must be feeling awful.

Oh no OP. This isn’t good - I can see why you’re furious. It’s likely you will feel like this for some time to come and the feeling will come and go at different times. I can see how this could’ve built over time. It’s difficult when you see other families going out and doing things and you want to do that too or have x new thing. From your post DH sounds like a good husband and father and I can understand him wanting to provide.

As others have suggested, you need to make a plan together and if it’s really complicated, use a debt councillor. Chip away at it over time and try to reduce the interest. Credit score will improve as things get wiped off the record over time. If you’re struggling financially at the moment because of it, see if any of the companies will accept a payment plan, so you can keep more of your income, although more often it’s best to try to pay as much as possible as quickly as possible.

Just a hand hold from me, OP. Lots of good advice and experiences from other posters but just wanted to say I’m sorry for you and hope you can work it out with your DH. Also agree you have every right to be furious and to make clear to him that you’re very disappointed.

Continuing my post...

In the future if you want to move, there are specialist mortgage brokers that will lend to people with recovering credit scores. So all isn’t lost and DH’s income can still count.

There could be a silver lining in that the housing market is going to be really uncertain over the next few years with everything that’s going on. Personally I think you’d have to have a very strong need to do a move now or be very brave.

First OP, pat yourself on the back for being prepared to stick with him and his debt. Second, this is in no way your fault, you are not to blame. Any marriage has to be based on a certain level of trust - he broke that trust, big time. As acrossthepond indicated, anger doesn't have to be nasty.

Lots of practical advice on here, you decide what suits you best, but at the very least you need to take control of all the finances including his income.

Work out a plan with him, and eventually allow him some money of his own, but ensure paying the debt comes first.

I wish you well and hope he comes to his senses and makes it with you.

50k of hidden debt is unforgivable in my eyes. That doesn’t just effect him but both of you. He could of said at any time and it would of been less.

This must have been an awful shock OP, there have been some massive lies here and now HE is the one moping? I would find it hard to get past the way he has been leading you on about the new house, I would have to ask him about his thought process here, it seems so immature.

I would absolutely need to see his bank statements. To see (how much) salary coming in and then very, very carefully look at all the outgoings, paying special attention to any transfers to any other accounts and seeing these account statements too. Beware that some gambling operators use "cover" names for their transactions.

Once you know his exact salary, you would have a very good idea of what his disposable income is, so if he says he will pay for a meal or for a holiday you will know if it is realistic or not.

Many people here are saying they forgave their DP once, after a bail-out and they then went on to do it again. This overspending foolishness and the attitude that tomorrow will never come really is a mindset and it seems that it is hard to break.

You're allowed to be angry, very angry.

I ran debt up, and DH was furious. But, he was more furious that I'd hid it than the money, if that makes sense. He felt that I'd betrayed his trust, and it took us a long time to come back from.

Lessons I learned? He has to be honest. Full disclosure of all bank and credit card statements so you know exactly how much. Then HE has to take steps to deal with it. Don't do it for him, because he won't learn anything and will most likely repeat the cycle. This isn't on you to solve, trust me and he won't respect you if you do so.

And get on Rightmove again and look at downsizing. With a debt that size, it's likely to be the only way to clear this debt off quickly and if anything, this has proved that you're living way outside of your family means. You should never have to put day to day expenses on credit.

Hey Kongo BBC

The thing that strikes me in stories like this is the fact that 2 adults living together chose to look the other way. OP: don't get offended, it's not judgement, it's really "I don't understand why" thing. We always had separate bank accounts, but always knew each other's codes/passwords. And at any point both of us know appr. how much money is on the other's account. Or can check.

This might be a stupid idea, but...
you can get credit cards that have 0%APR for 1-2-3 years. Can you get a few of them and transfer some of the debt? That way at least whilst you are repaying in small amounts you won't accumulate more.
We did this when we bought our matrices and sofa 2 years ago. We had the money (not more, but would have been enough), but we wanted cash on hand if needed, so opted to pay with credit card. Then transferred said credit to a 0% card. I've just made my final payment.

Again, not too much money, but did you think about selling your car(s)? When we were in a dark place financially we sold one of our cars and I bought a 15yrs old small one to be able to get around as DH needed his one every day.

Same timeframe as above: Before that we always had our salaries transferred into a bank acc. At one point I decided that when salary arrives we both take out our in cash and then sit down and earmark the money in separate envelopes. We checked on each other so the other wouldn't spend from earmarked money (i actually asked for that). What we had left went into a glass jar and every few months we made an extra mortgage payment.

If you actively want to save then the usual suspects of logging and tagging every penny you spend are the best route to take.

(our debt was a bit more over 80k as our mortgage at one point became 80k instead of the original 2xk. - different country, different decade, fell in line with the 2008 crisis)
But at least it was not either of our fault, which made it easier a bit.

I would be divorcimg

@UnicornAndSparkles

A similar thing happened to me, although we weren't house hunting. DH was in over 10k of debt that I had no idea about. I'm really debt adverse. He was just spending beyond his means despite a very good salary. He admitted it, accepted he had an alcohol problem (which was where a lot of the money had gone). I was furious about the lies. But 7m on he is alcohol free and repaying the debt and my fury has gone.

To feel rage is a normal reaction and you should allow yourself to feel it. When you're ready you can move on.

How could anyone spend that amount just on alcohol??

I do understand about debt spirals. I’ve been there myself, I just don’t see how this debt can be explained by a couple of takeaways as some posters are suggesting. But it doesn’t really matter. What matters is that you have to face the monster. Sit down and bring all your paperwork and work out everything you owe, work out a proper budget for everything you spend and absolutely stick to it. It’s going to take a long time to pay it off though, but all you can do is work at it.

I got into huge debt in my twenties. It started at uni when my bank offered me credit cards and I started racking up debt and making minimum repayments. I took out a loan for 25 grand in my twenties to consolidate my CC debt and car finance of a few thousand. It came to a head a few years later when I realised I was living on my credit card to pay for every day expenses and I couldn't afford my loan repayments. My total debt when I went to a debt advice service was just under 40 grand. I had nothing to show for it. I just had no idea how to budget and went out for meals and had a few holidays and was completely in denial about my debts.
That was 15 years ago and through a debt management plan, a good chunk of PPI payout and a lot of budgeting and going back to basics on what comes in and what goes out I'm happy to say I'm debt free apart from a mortgage.
I wasn't a bad person and I certainly had no hidden secrets, I was just into a severe debt spiral and once I had figured out how bad it was I was so embarrassed and anxious about it I just didn't know where to turn. Getting debt advice and owning my problem was the best thing I ever did.

If DP did this, getting angry would be the worst thing I could do. He'd just shout and holler that it was no wonder he didn't tell me, because he knew I'd go ballistic and give him a hard time.

A couple of years ago, I knew there was something he was being cagey about: we have an outside letter box and he kept emptying it, something he never normally does. I bided my time until one day a police officer came to the door to see DP. I let him in, went upstairs and left them to it. When he'd gone, I asked DP wtf he wanted. It transpired that a driver had cut him up really badly when he was riding his motorbike to work, and DP had punched his wing mirror and damaged it. I'm afraid to say I pissed myself laughing at this 60-year old vandal, and told him that I knew he was up to no good because he kept emptying the post.

DP was so relieved, he thought I'd go ballistic and really rip into him, apparently, to which I replied "You're confusing me with your ex".

Mind you, he'd never be reckless with money, he hates spending and he's a compulsive saver. He might well lie about how much money he's actually got, now I think about it, for fear I insist on him buying some new shoes or something!

I know it's been an awful shock and will take a lot of sorting out, OP, but wanted to point out that a "more in sorrow than in anger" approach might just be more productive and encourage future openness.

Obviously the fault here is entirely with the husband but I have to say that my DH made it very easy for me to run up debts without his knowledge, he left all finances to me and didn’t even log onto our bank account for over 5 years. Obviously he should have been able to trust me but past experience suggested he couldn’t.
Not victim blaming at all but in a relationship both partners should at least some idea of finances.

Consolidation loans are the spawn of the devil and should be banned.

Raising the credit limit on a maxed out card should also be banned.

Making the minimum payment on a card being less than 5% of the balance should be banned

and EVERYBODY who has a credit card debt they are just servicing should look at this very old thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/legal_money_matters/1715581-Cost-of-credit-cards-and-mortgages-the-spreadsheets
and use the "standing order trick"

Making the minimum payment on a card being less than 5% of the balance should be banned

This seemingly innocuous change is one of the main reasons why people have been been able to get into so much debt.

When I got my first credit card some time in the 1990s, the minimum payment was 5% and over the decades most banks have quietly dropped it to as low as 1%. This is seen as a good thing when selling the card 'only 1% minimum payment'.

It might have changed now, but at one point it was possible to have a card and the minimum payment didn't even cover the interest - I think there are rules in place that now the minimum payment must at least cover the interest.

So if someone is only paying the minimum, what can happen is they only realise they are in trouble when they struggle to pay the minimum payment. Say you can afford to pay £250 pm off your credit card. If the minimum payment is 5% of the balance, a £250 pm minimum payment means your balance is £5000, so when it rises above this level, you are 'only' £5000 in debt when you realise you are in trouble so might be easy to rectify.

However, if the minimum payment is 1% of the balance (or more likely sum of the balances across a number of cards as most people would be up against credit limits at this point), by the time the minimum payment is starting to be more than you can afford, you are £25k in debt, which is a much bigger undertaking to recover from. And this could be after years of paying the minimum payment every month and often just about all those monthly £250 payments being swallowed up in interest.

There's rule changes filtering through that mean that people can't be allowed to plug along for years in 'persistent debt' that could force people to stop using cards until they have paid the debt off, because the regulators have recognised that card issuers have been merrily making a fortune from high interest credit keeping people in debt for years on end.

Barbara
If you play with the spreadsheets on that really old thread ....

£10,000 owed on a card with an APR of 20% and minimum of £10

5% minimum repay - clears it in 12 years and the bank charge £5000 in interest

2% minimum - clears it in 33 years and the bank make a profit of £36,000

and then people wonder how huge debts stack up .....

2% minimum - clears it in 33 years and the bank make a profit of £36,000.

See this is why when people say they can’t believe someone has built up that much on trivial stuff alone obviously never uses a credit card (and rightly so) but it’s just so incredibly easy stick the weekly takeaway on the credit card, and the coffee on the way to work, new clothes/shoes/a night out... And it all mounts up very quickly.

I don’t owe anything on my credit card, but whenever I have, even when it was e.g. about £1500 I paid for a holiday, I was desperate to get it paid off ASAP

Some people put stuff on the credit card if they buy online because using a credit card gives extra insurance and you can claim back easily. But again so many people don’t then pay that amount off in full. My parents put all amazon purchases on their credit card, but they pay it all off at the end of the month.

Generally if you can’t afford to pay for something in full you shouldn’t have it, with perhaps the exception of things like appliances or boilers etc which may need replacing unexpectedly.

ListeningQuietly, whats the standing order trick?

NC for this. I could have written this 10 years ago, right down to the amount and the fact he didn't know what it had all gone on. We had a crap car and hadn't been on a proper holiday in years. It wasn't gambling or another woman just loads of low-grade crap.

It was hellish, I seriously considered leaving and used to walk past the crappy Council flats we'd worked so hard to get out of and asking myself if I could bear to go back there, just ds and me.

We had to re-mortgage to consolidate the debt, going from 50% equity to virtually none. I remember sitting in the bank in tears as the advisor was trying to get us to take to critical illness cover but I knew we just couldn't afford it.

Thankfully, DH faced up to the situation and got help via step-change. It took a long time but we've now got just 4 years left on the mortgage and about 75% equity. We've even been able to go abroad a few times.

Someone upthread mentioned Money Saving Expert and they have a great forum called debt free wannabees which is full of advice from people who've been there.

I had just turned 40 when this happened so it felt like a real step back in time to when we used to struggle.

DH now has no credit cards, just a prepaid card for when we go on holiday. We no longer have a joint account. My money is mine, his is his and we split the bills. I've accepted that any unexpected bills e.g. new washing machine, I just have to suck it up and pay for it myself.

OP I understand exactly how you feel but life goes on and you CAN come through this as long as he's honest and faces up to the challenge.

All the best (()).

Callmeadoctor
Have a look on that old thread at the first spreadsheet that lets you see how your credit card payments work out.

Basically you keep your repayment at the same amount every month rather than letting it fall

It changes the time to clear a card debt from decades to years