AIBU to be furious at DH over hidden debt?

[Worrywart2020]

I’ve NC for this as am fairly confident DH’s family prowl MN and I don’t want to add fuel to the family gossip flames

My DH and I have been talking at some length about moving house, We have decided we would like to do so before it would alter DC’s schooling and don’t want to cause more upheaval by moving once settled

So we’ve been doing the usual, scouting Rightmove and having a look around desired areas - We’ve even been to look at a few houses (drive by areas not internal viewing due to Covid) and have found a house we really love (but would be at our top top stretching ourselves budget unless we could somehow persuade them to take 10K less which is obviously unlikely)

However today we have hit a full brick wall, Discussing mortgages with DH and I decided to use a mortgage calculator to see realistically if/what we could borrow and go from there - Turns out DH has CONSIDERABLY more debt than I had realised, I knew he had previously gotten a loan to consolidate credit card debt etc but as we share the mortgage/childcare fees from a joint account (paid in to by separate accounts) I had no idea of the full scope

Turns out DH is nearly 50K in debt!
I have now point blank turned down the idea of moving because realistically we couldn’t afford anything more than we pay now as DH earns significantly more than me (although we both work FT) and his credit score is ultimately crippled and he is now moping around saying he feels awful and didn’t know how to tell me etc

I feel so so angry and honestly heartbroken, I don’t know why he has hidden this from me for so long

He doesn’t seem to realise the massive implications this has on both of us and has said that he felt unable to tell me because “he should be able to provide for his family” but that he’s been drowning in debt taking out loan and loan for years

I know it would be unreasonable of me to really lose my temper with him but right now I am so so angry with him so I’ve come upstairs under the guise of tidying to just get away from him

I don’t know what to do, I haven’t a clue where to start - Our house is in no danger, we have never defaulted on a mortgage payment (I have checked) and as far as the bank are concerned are model customers, I could pick up the slack there if it did become an issue but there is no possibility of me being able to pay off all of his bills

AIBU to be utterly furious? Or really should I just accept the situation for the next few years at least (and know we will have to significantly tighten our belts to weather this storm) without protest?

My DH (although clearly useless with money) is genuinely a lovely guy, a good father and we have a very happy marriage - but right now I could murder him, I feel too that I’m more angry with the situation because we had been actively looking online at properties and (I thought) planning our future together- all the while he’s been hiding this massive issue rendering the whole thing IMPOSSIBLE!

(I feel the need to point out too that there is no seedy undergoing here, the debt has been accrued by seemingly living far beyond his means for years but without showing this to me, neither of us have had pay rises in the last 6 years and the outgoings have gradually taken over the incoming)

So sorry OP, that sounds so hard
I'd find that really hard to deal with too and if it was me in your situation I would make it clear to DP that he has do find out how to regain your trust and sort out his issues if you're going to continue your relationship.
Look in to Dave Ramsey, great for debt repaying and ultimately learning how to deal with finances, living within your means and making sure you're not in debt.

A great husband and father doesn't put his wife and children in this position. A happy and successful marriage does not involve one half of it racking up 50k worth of debt. How stupid you must have felt, how humiliating to drive round looking at houses building a new life in your head, all the while your DH knows IT'S NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN.
Let's face it, he only told you about the debt because he was backed into a corner, otherwise you'd have never known. He'd have carried on racking it up til what? 75k? 100k? So forget what you thought you knew about your husband and the state of your marriage because quite frankly it's been built on lies.
Having established he's a pretty skilled liar and a deceitful human being the only way through this is 100% transparency. You have access to every credit card statement, every bank statement, everything. I think you're going to find some things on there that will surprise you.
Finally, you have every right to be angry. This man has robbed you of the future you were planning through his lies and inability to face reality. Can you carry on being married to someone who doesn't see you as an equal? Or a partner? Rather, someone to lie to, keep secrets from and only be honest with when he has no other choice??

How much does he earn?

@Iloveyoutothefridgeandback

I would fucking furious. So many lies! And they are really big lies too. Lies which have a very big impact on the whole family.

I'm not sure I could forgive this. I don't know if I'd be able to trust him ever again.

I think this would be me too, it's selfish in the extreme to put your family into that position and as you didn't even notice it can't really have been for making your life better unless you also have no awareness of what level of lifestyle his salary is able to support.

My respect would be gone, not just for the waste of money but the keeping a secret

I can totally see how a debt like that can build up over years. You have £5k on a credit card, open another for a zero interest balance transfer fully intending to close the first card and focus on paying off the new one, but expenses come up, you start spending again on the original card and not repaying more than the minimum on the new one. You don't miss a payment, lenders are happy to offer you another card/ loan/ etc, you keep up the minimums, people keep being happy to lend, you tell yourself you are going to stop spending and just repay, you realise how big the debt is getting and panic and think you can't tell anyone and it just snowballs.

It's not £50k all in one go, it's £50k made up of years of spending, added interest, transfer fees, etc etc etc. It is so easy to get stuck in debt and so hard to get out without the right support.

I do agree with a previous post (sorry, can't remember which poster) that you need to be angry, he needs to know how much he has upset you, and betrayed your trust and the implications fore you whole family! If you just go quiet for a while and then help him fix it there is a fair chance he wont see the enormity of what he's done and risk it again.

Then, your first decision is whether or not you wish to stay in your marriage - if you do, then you need to come to an arrangement whereby all of this money is paid back but there is transparency in your finances, so I think he has his wages paid into your joint account so you can keep an eye on what is going out, as then he wont be able to take more loans out as he wont be able to make the repayments in secret, then if you can - as you say you're both fairly good earners, tighten your belts and hike up some of the payments to get them paid off quicker, any credit cards that aren't on interest free, get them transferred which will save you money in the long term.

from what I can see there are multiple loans and several credit cards

In that case there's every chance that there's more than you're aware of. I don't think you've said how long the debt has built up over (?) but you certainly need full disclosure involving banks, credit reports and the rest to know exactly where you stand

At that point you can make decisions and plans, but there's little point in either until you know

I've been there too and also a similar amount. He told me himself rather than me finding out which did help things. I was so angry, hurt, confused. All those things.

We sat down and made a note of everything owed. Then we spoke to a mortgage adviser and luckily we could remortgage and get enough to clear all the debt.

In his favour was the fact he'd never missed a payment. So although it was horrible it didn't set us back, but we were fortunate that was the case.

I'm not going to lie, it took time for our relationship to recover from the hit and I still get very anxious about money decision even though we are in a much better place.

I think you're absolutely right to be furious but I also find it inconceivable that you knew so little about your joint finances.

Unless he has spent this £50k entirely on himself (has he?) when you say he has been living beyond his means you mean you, as a family, have been living beyond your means. How did you not know what those means were? I'd be really cross with myself too, for allowing such a situation to evolve.

Should add. One of my must haves to get past this was access to his credit score online. I have the password to one of his online credit check accounts. I can look any time and see what sent is there. I do trust him again but it's reassuring to me that this wasn't a deal breaker. I only check it now as a quick way to check the interest free credit card balance as it's in his name 👍

"OP = it's nothing dodgy, he is just living beyond his means"

"Everyone = Oh no, he must have something dodgy going on"

"OP = there really isn't"

"Everyone = oh but there must be"

It depends how long it has taken for the debt to be built up. If it's a year or two it's a problem. Or it could be over a period of ten years. If it is credit card debt, a big chunk of it could be in interest. It doesn't take much of a monthly overspend over time to build up a huge debt on a credit card.

50k of debt is a lot of debt and although your house is fine at the moment you would be nieve to assume that this is the case going forwards. If your DH was made redundant then how would you cover the costs of living plus the repayments of debt. This debt is, by most standards, above a yearly wage for 1 person or even a couple. You really do need to go through statements and see how you can get this loan down

Don't waste energy on whether he is upset. This is his mess, but unfortunately you'll have to fix it

That's an interesting point - why does she have to fix it? Why does he get to walk away from the shitstorm he's created and hand it over for someone to sort out?

He's not a little boy, she's not his mother, how will he learn for the future? Why should one partner have to micromange the other? Money management isn't rocket science, make him learn

When I read your OP, I knew people would be insisting he’s a gambling addict! Doesn’t sound like it to me.

I understand your anger but I also think the best thing to do is work out an action plan together.

You are completely entitled to feel betrayed and angry. But ... why do you not know what your combined monthly income and committed outgoings are? If you did then the insidious creep of debt would have been potentially more obvious earlier - if you knew what those two sums were then you would know that the meal out or the grocery bill that week/month might take you over the edge and make appropriate choices. You are a team, a partnership - and you need full disclosure. I know what our nominal monthly supermarket 'allowance' (for want of better word is) and as the one who actively chooses to do the supermarket shop know that if we have visitors thereby increasing costs that there will need to be trade-offs. I know what the fixed costs are - we have a spreadsheet - so know where the wriggle room is. It doesn't stop my husband taking out a secret credit card and racking up debt but it does make the insidious creep of income v outgoing mismatch more transparent earlier. You need to sit down and get busy with your bills etc. so that you both know where you stand.

I think you have to take some responsibility here too, OP.

If it is as you say, and frittered away on tat and mini-breaks and things for the family, you've been part of that too.

Assuming you know your husband's income, surely you would have realised you didn't have XXXX disposable income each month to afford those things?

Sounds like he's been deceptive but you've both been financially irresponsible to me,

One of the other things I would do, is if he has been making minimum payments on the credit cards, if you have any savings, when he rings them up, negotiate with them in paying off the whole debt.

I.E If he owes 5k on one card see if they will accept 2.5k straight away to pay it off there and then. The worst they are going to say is no, or they may negotiate to 3.5k (always best to have the most amount you are going to go up to.) I am not sure if this will work, if he has been keeping up with the repayments, but by the time I got my head out the sand I had wrecked my credit rating and missed over 3 payments, the credit card company was just happy to get something out of me eventually.

Make sure he does this, its not your mess to sort out repayments, negotiations and maybe getting interest stopped for a few months, till you are on your feet properly.

I would also say, take over the family budget and sod him give him pocket money, till he can be trusted again, while it might not sound great I agree with PP that this has been built up probably pre you

How much debt did you think he had op?

Can you take over the financial side of things. Your dh obviously finds it too much/stressful by the sounds of it.

Yanbu to be pissed off.

@hanahsaunt

You are completely entitled to feel betrayed and angry. But ... why do you not know what your combined monthly income and committed outgoings are? If you did then the insidious creep of debt would have been potentially more obvious earlier - if you knew what those two sums were then you would know that the meal out or the grocery bill that week/month might take you over the edge and make appropriate choices. You are a team, a partnership - and you need full disclosure. I know what our nominal monthly supermarket 'allowance' (for want of better word is) and as the one who actively chooses to do the supermarket shop know that if we have visitors thereby increasing costs that there will need to be trade-offs. I know what the fixed costs are - we have a spreadsheet - so know where the wriggle room is. It doesn't stop my husband taking out a secret credit card and racking up debt but it does make the insidious creep of income v outgoing mismatch more transparent earlier. You need to sit down and get busy with your bills etc. so that you both know where you stand.

Cross post. This, exactly. Family finances are a team effort.

Be angry with yourself too and commit to do better together *

• unless he has spent it on gambling, drugs & unicorns.

I know it would be unreasonable of me to really lose my temper with him but right now I am so so angry with him so I’ve come upstairs under the guise of tidying to just get away from him

No it wouldn't! You'd be justified in hitting the roof over this!

Had he told you early on that money was tight, the two of you could have looked at ways to reduce your outgoings - as it is, he's funded a lifestyle you can't sustain without more and more debt - and let if get to a level that will be very difficult to pay off.

Your family is going to have to massively tighten your belts just to stay at this level of debt, never mind paying off the capital. I really feel for you - you must be so disappointed. It would have knocked me sick - physically sick.

£50k in addition to his earnings!

I don't believe that is a meal out here and there. How long since you last got a mortgage? The debt must have accumulated since then. Sorry but I'd be looking for gambling, drink, drugs or girls. Not much else would cost that much.

I think you demand four things

1. He prints off his Experian credit report in front of you, so you know the full extent of the mess he has landed you in, not what he has admitted to.
2. He cancels things so there are immediate consequences. Gym, pay tv, any subscriptions, clubs, etc
3. He hands over his credit cards and keeps only a debit card.
4. You both agree all your accounts will be visible to each other, and you agree a schedule of repayments.

I'd also make it clear this doesn't happen again or you'll seriously reconsider your marriage.

I'd be spitting fire! He's tied you to the same anchor.

I'm not sure I could recover from that level of dishonesty. And the fact he didn't have the balls to come clean? Total coward.

YANBU to be furious. This level of deceit is huge.

I would definitely want to see how/why this debt has become so big. He needs to look at a debt consolidation plan so he can start making a dent in it.

I would advise setting up something similar to what we do financially - all money comes into a joint account. All bills come out of a separate account via direct debit (so we have a good idea of how much we bed each month). We have a joint “bills” account and transfer money each month to cover those bills. It’s easier to keep that in a separate account so you’re not budgeting your food shopping etc in with your utilities. We have a joint account for this but in your position I’d keep it in a separate account. Anything left in the main joint account is for food etc. Then we have separate accounts with a modest amount each month for ourselves. I spend mine on my hair, clothes etc. DH tends to save his. Depends on your income/debt repayment as to if you can afford this as well and how much you’d be able to put in if you did.

But you need a total “cards on the table” to know exactly what your income is, how he’s got into debt and how you can manage the money.

@Nixen, I don’t think it is the case that OP’s DH has spent £50k on top of his disposable income because some of the debt will be accrued interest, particularly on credit cards. Credit cards are useful if you can afford the repayments but if you can only afford minimum payments it doesn’t take long for the debt to become completely out of control.

A couple of posters have suggested remortgaging. This can be a solution, but must be approached with extreme caution.

The DH has already gone through more than one cycle of 'repaying' debt, only to let it build up again, before the new loan is paid off. If this happened again after remortgaging, they will have more debt in addition to a bigger mortgage, so in an even worse position.

It also moves short term unsecured debt to long term secured debt, so is now putting their house at risk, and is making the OP equally liable for the debt, currently she has no liability for it.

And even though the interest rate will be much lower, it's not necessarily cheaper because the mortgage will be over a much longer period.

With credit cards, you can get interest free balance transfers for a small fee. He/they should try that first, along with living very frugally, to see if the debt can be paid off in a few years.

The problem is that he's let his credit cards run for years on the minimum payments, which is extremely expensive. As it happens, I got my credit card bill today. It is used for all joint expenses like shopping, fuel, clothes, meals out, purchases etc and paid off in full every month, to earn cashback.

The bill is £962 with a minimum payment of just £19.25. The estimated interest next month if the bill isn't paid off is £18.55, meaning that if someone pays only the minimum, just 70 pence of that £19.25 would go towards reducing the debt, and just about all of the payment would simply cover the interest and that's how people sleepwalk into debts that exceed their annual salary with nothing to show for it. They've spent tens of thousands of pounds on interest.

Not second families, gambling habits, sports cars or anything else that some posters are assuming that the DH has been indulging himself with. Interest. Making banks rich.