AIBU to not trust my gut on man I'm dating?

[StartingAgain33]

I've been dating someone for three months. He's thoughtful, intelligent, successful, wants the same things in life as me and has made it clear that he sees a future with me (as much as someone can in such a short space of time). He also has literally built my dream life and is inviting me to be a part of it. But my gut keeps telling me to run away, and my therapist says that one of my key challenges is learning to tune into and act on my gut. I'm obsessing and would love your thoughts.

I worry I'm focusing on the negatives too much. I'm about to be 36, keen to have children and tired of being in a dating pool with guys that either don't have their shit together and so by default aren't ready for kids, or who are emotionally avoidant and not willing to put their cards on the table. This guy is neither of those things, and is up for doing the work of a real relationship. So I worry this is just my commitment issues - and potentially anxiety at having met someone so amazing - coming to the fore. What would you think?

Good things:

• He is open about wanting to settle down, feeling ready for children (a priority for me), about having done the necessary work to get to this point with a therapist (he went to boarding school from a young age and was very starved of love - so had a very avoidant dating pattern). He had one 18 month relationship which ended last year which he said went a long way to healing some of his commitment issues. However, he never loved her and they broke it off as they both felt (I think it was more that he felt) that what they had wasn't 'enough'. This was after they had moved in together to test the relationship (I kind of think you should know if you love someone before making that move, and wonder how much anxiety she was hiding?)
• He is very successful and leads a really great life. He's open and generous with this life - introducing me to friends and family, making fun trips happen all the time
• His future vision is the same as mine to an uncanny degree
• He's not afraid to challenge me and be honest about things, something which I find difficult (I have an anxious attachment pattern)
• Seems to have a realistic view of what to expect from relationships
• He's very good at going for what he wants and making things happen, which I find attractive
• Has great, very close long-term friendships - shows he is capable of longer term intimacy
• Is very up for 'doing the work' in a relationship
• Is kind when I open up to him about difficulties, and makes an effort to be there for me
• Is very consistent with communication, very much leading on this aspect of our relationship

Bad things:

• He has a very avoidant past (41 years old, has had one relationship in the past 20 or so years and many flings), and I think may have difficulty in general connecting to people. Even though I know this, I keep blame myself for what I feel is a lack of connection in our interactions (I'm not sure he feels this too, although I'm thinking about asking him as it's driving me crazy - like an elephant in the room)
• I just have a terrible gut feeling a lot of the time. When I'm with him, there's a sort of stilted atmosphere (I feel) and I don't feel able to relax. We hardly laugh. He's quiet quite a lot. He's been honest that he has abandonment issues and that he is hypervigilant to signs of rejection, which makes him quiet, so I've tried to have patience with it but I also feel hypervigilant around him. I've tried to spend lots of time with him to get over this and it's still there most of the time
• Talks about relationships as 'work' a lot - feels a little joyless
• Despite talking quite a lot about money / having lots of investments and also enough savings to never have to work again, he has let me somehow do all of the grocery shopping for every visit we've had. Majority of these have been me going to his city, which is nicer to hang out in as it's close to the countryside, so I'm spending money on train tickets AND about £80 at least every single time. This is really stacking up. In comparison, he knows that at 35 I'm still saving for a housing deposit and am going through an expensive egg freezing process. He is extremely frugal in general. The one time he paid of out food on a visit (because I lost my bank card) he asked me to settle up with him afterwards. He probably doesn't realise how much I've spent, as I've not communicated this and frankly find it awkward and quite rude that he wouldn't enquire himself or just say 'I'll pay for groceries next time'. Of all the things, strangely, this one makes me most angry and uncomfortable. I guess because we're from very different social classes and I would never want to be seen as a gold digger (he knows this, we've spoken about the fact that I've always dated people from a 'higher' class than me and that I've always gone at least halves or paid for more because I don't want to be seen as with them for their money)
• I find our conversation often turns to serious subjects - trauma, how messed up someone is, work stuff - and there is little lightness. He is a thoughtful and quite serious character, I think, but I also worry this is just a chemistry thing and he'd be better with someone else (which then makes me want to fix it)
• Because he's very open about wanting to settle down, it can sometimes make me feel like he is being spurred by that rather than wanting to be with ME. This could be my paranoia. But he doesn't often express how he actually feels about me, or why. He expresses his affection, I guess, through wanting to spend lots of time together, but even this feels a little intense / out of kilter with our level of emotional intimacy. Lockdown and living in different cities doesn't help - our dates are several days long, which I think I find a bit much
• He's commented a few times about how I have a higher sex drive than him / enjoy it more. This makes me feel self conscious about asking for sex. When I did the one time, last week, he was too tired. We didn't have enough physical closeness in my four day visit for me to feel particularly cared for or happy. In general I find him just quite distant. Sex feels a little transactional - like he'll do the minimum to make me orgasm, then he's like 'job done' and then gets his and it's over. There isn't enough kissing or general sensuality for me. I don't feel very connected with him
• I said I was uncomfy meeting his parents on our third ever date (it was a week long, and we'd been talking on zoom for a month before meeting, plus we actually know eachother from 13 years ago in a work context, but still). He said that was fine and they weren't coming, then the day before told me they actually were and I could 'hide in the house as they'd be in the garden and he'd just say I had lots of work to do' if I wanted. I felt intensely uncomfy with this setup so just met them anyway, but felt very awkward. He hadn't seen them all lockdown, and apparently it was just circumstantial that they visited that day, but I felt a little blindsided. I also met his sister and niece on the day, had been living with his other sister for a week and had spent the day with his best friends that week also. It all felt a little much

So - am I looking a gifthorse in the mouth? My anxiety levels are through the roof on this. For some reason I feel like I need to end it NOW even though I know there's loads of great things going for this guy. Any idea what might be going on?

I think you'd be crazy not to trust your gut. I think that your question is confusingly phrased (basically it requires thinking in a double negative) so I believe the voting has given you the opposite response of what people mean.

It just doesn't sound a good healthy natural fit for me, but that you're both trying to work at a fit because you tick boxes with each other? Not a good basis for a lasting relationship.
Some people/men can have great relationships and friendships, but being a life partner/husband/father might not be a part of who they are or can be.

I promise he does have many redeeming qualities. He's handsome, very smart and I honestly believe he wants to be kind and fair but just has something a bit wrong with him

There are millions of men on the planet who are handsome and smart.

He has lots wrong with him.

FWIW I dated a man who had been to a top all-boys public school, boarding school from age 7, very wealthy parents, and who did 'blame' that for the fact he was single in his mid 30s when we met. But he was poor (professional but not a high salary career.)

In comparison I was brought up by very poor parents in a working class town.

He never ever made me feel insecure or unworthy or whatever.

Boarding school from a young age can leave its mark- there are some good books on this from the 'survivors'. However, I think this man has other issues that are not attributable to schooling.

You mention that you allow relationships to last too long.
Maybe you need to ask why.
Last chance saloon syndrome?
Giving men too long while you try to convince yourself they are possible?

At your age now, if you want kids, you need to be ruthless.
A few dates then onto the next one.
Don't be anyone's 'rescuer'.
Don't keep going in the hope it will get better. Usually it doesn't.

It just seems so strange that so many people could vouch for him and then he's like this.

If he has issues but is nice enough and has some good qualities too, it's understandable that he might have lots of friends but hasn't had a meaningful relationship get off the ground.

I have friends who'd be absolute nightmares as romantic partners, but who are still enjoyable to hang out with - it's a completely different threshold in terms of emotional intelligence, etc when you're not in a relationship or thinking about co-parenting (and ideally love).

I guess I feel sorry for him and really wanted this to work, as did he.

Again; lots of his friends and family are probably rooting for him to find someone to settle down with for the same reason. But for everyone involved, it really needs to be a relationship where both parties are completely comfortable.

He is a tight-fisted unpassionate unfunny man - is walk away on that alone.

I couldn't be with someone with no laughter between us. I'd trust your gut.

Well even without all of your instincts screaming at you to run there seems to be enough red flags to open a red flag megastore.

Your body is telling you to get out for a reason, listen to it.

I haven't RTFT just the original post and the last page.

But my overwhelming feeling is to dump and run. You've given this chap 3 months of your life and SO much headspace.

He can't offer you laughter, good sex or even share the bills. At only 3 months into a relationship it shouldn't be so hard.

Always choose a partner who makes your life better.

@JinglingHellsBells

I promise he does have many redeeming qualities. He's handsome, very smart and I honestly believe he wants to be kind and fair but just has something a bit wrong with him

There are millions of men on the planet who are handsome and smart.

He has lots wrong with him.

FWIW I dated a man who had been to a top all-boys public school, boarding school from age 7, very wealthy parents, and who did 'blame' that for the fact he was single in his mid 30s when we met. But he was poor (professional but not a high salary career.)

In comparison I was brought up by very poor parents in a working class town.

He never ever made me feel insecure or unworthy or whatever.

Boarding school from a young age can leave its mark- there are some good books on this from the 'survivors'. However, I think this man has other issues that are not attributable to schooling.

You mention that you allow relationships to last too long.
Maybe you need to ask why.
Last chance saloon syndrome?
Giving men too long while you try to convince yourself they are possible?

At your age now, if you want kids, you need to be ruthless.
A few dates then onto the next one.
Don't be anyone's 'rescuer'.
Don't keep going in the hope it will get better. Usually it doesn't.

True. Actually I went out with someone once who was probably better off than this man, but I had no real idea because money just wasn't a central feature of our relationship. He never made me feel uncomfy for clearly having a lot less than him, and I never felt judged or like he was constantly seeing what the differences between us were. He was American, so not as class-centric as someone who's been bought up in the English system, but still - it just felt like not a big deal at all.

That uneasy feeling...

The many hells a woman can get herself into by overriding that feeling.

That's the gift of fear, that's your intuition, that's your gut. Listen.

Both your gut, your brain, your common sense, your experience with him, and your five other senses are telling you something is not quite right here. That uneasy feeling, though, is telling your something is really wrong.

You could waste a decade of your life talking yourself out of believing yourself, only to find to your horror you were right all along.

But what on earth could it be, I'm being silly, you tell yourself, and push it down...

Don't let self-doubt, giving the other person the benefit of the doubt, and yeah, but.... he's very nice in certain ways and yeah, but... I'm getting on and I want kids and yeah, but... he's working on himself, and he had a damaging upbringing... and yeah, but other people seem to like him, maybe I'm just being too...

You can always find other people who very much like the outside world persona of a truly terrible man. I'd trust that uneasy feeling in your gut over his seeming 'fineness' to the outer world.

He's already messing with your head, so you're not really sure if your can trust your own perceptions. My god, in a few years time....

Stingy. Manipulative. Headfucking. Selfish. Doesn't want sex, and not very good at it. And gives you an inexplicable creepy feeling.

Back away slowly, then run. Don't look back.

God, OP, many, many PPs telling you to run. I would add- very fast. Also stop bloody over-thinking everything! Let your next relationship develop naturally, go with the flow, have fun, don't talk about your bloody relationship and I hope he laughs your knickers off before you have the best sex known to man. ( Happened to me at 38, I thoroughly recommend it, 10 years on he's still doing it)

@StartingAgain33 This isn't meant to be patronising so bear with me.

You are clearly bright (Oxbridge grad) but IME (professional hat here) very bright people can tend to overthink and create all sorts of issues for themselves.

Part of the over-thinking is analysing others, rather than looking at the bleedin' obvious- which the intellectually challenged would not overlook.

You were impressed by this man because of his status (business stuff), no doubt too he is articulate and bright, good looking and has several godchildren (he may have been chosen as a good role model - business brain, high achiever, but also being childless his friends may have felt they were doing him a favour.)

BUT that's somewhat superficial in some ways when he doesn't measure up as being kind and generous (and not just with money.)

I don't believe too much in 'gut instinct' - if you research it, people make decisions based on all kinds of subtle signs as well as experiences.

What I do believe is that some people choose to ignore those signs because it's not what they want to see in someone.
They push the thoughts away and when they keep popping up they call it a 'gut reaction'.

It's not.

It's your rational brain telling you something loud and clear!

And it's you focusing on the parts of his personality you want to believe in, the ones that present some rosy future for you as a couple, yet you push aside the uncomfortable parts.

This is clear in your 2st post where you said he built your dream life.

You feel for 'the life' not the man as he is.

Also- why are you in therapy?

Sounds as if there are behavioural patterns you too need to address so you can create a happy relationship.

Everyone has all the various points I was thinking covered except a little thing a women’s aid worker asked me after I escaped a scarily similar ex.

Do you think he was engaging in therapy, or there to pick up tips?

I had thought, since I too was in therapy, that his being in therapy was a good sign, but much like perverts seeking out children by volunteering or getting jobs near them, some abusers join therapy groups to gain easy access to the vulnerable and to learn the ‘patter’ to make manipulating them easier.

If you hadn’t already said he’s from Bristol I'd have been telling you to check for hidden cameras too.

He was American, so not as class-centric as someone who's been bought up in the English system, but still - it just felt like not a big deal at all.

I love American men.

So what happened to the Yank?

[quote JinglingHellsBells]@StartingAgain33 This isn't meant to be patronising so bear with me.

You are clearly bright (Oxbridge grad) but IME (professional hat here) very bright people can tend to overthink and create all sorts of issues for themselves.

Part of the over-thinking is analysing others, rather than looking at the bleedin' obvious- which the intellectually challenged would not overlook.

You were impressed by this man because of his status (business stuff), no doubt too he is articulate and bright, good looking and has several godchildren (he may have been chosen as a good role model - business brain, high achiever, but also being childless his friends may have felt they were doing him a favour.)

BUT that's somewhat superficial in some ways when he doesn't measure up as being kind and generous (and not just with money.)

I don't believe too much in 'gut instinct' - if you research it, people make decisions based on all kinds of subtle signs as well as experiences.

What I do believe is that some people choose to ignore those signs because it's not what they want to see in someone.
They push the thoughts away and when they keep popping up they call it a 'gut reaction'.

It's not.

It's your rational brain telling you something loud and clear!

And it's you focusing on the parts of his personality you want to believe in, the ones that present some rosy future for you as a couple, yet you push aside the uncomfortable parts.

This is clear in your 2st post where you said he built your dream life.

You feel for 'the life' not the man as he is.

Also- why are you in therapy?

Sounds as if there are behavioural patterns you too need to address so you can create a happy relationship.[/quote]
Hi @JinglingHellsBells, yes completely agree with this. I'm a terrible overthinker. The relationship OCD this guy says he is - it's ironic because I also really fit the criteria. I tried an app specifically for this, but the issue is it sort of told me not to listen to my doubts!! And probably kept me in this a little longer than I would have otherwise. I can think myself in and out of almost any conclusion about someone, it's awful and totally exhausting.

This is basically what I'm trying to work on in therapy at the moment. I do think I've made progress - this has been a relatively short relationship, extended by weird lockdown situation etc - and I've been bringing my gut feelings and doubts to the therapist throughout instead of only focusing on the minutiae of the relationship which is what I'd usually do. I think by actively noticing them this time, I've maybe built a bit more confidence that they are right? They've now been proven right about the last two short term relationships I've had, where at a similar point things have come together to form a conclusive 'no'.

My problem is that I overthink so much that I'm at risk of actually ruining something good if it comes along. Not quite sure how to deal with that. But I hope if the other person is secure and not giving me reason to be anxious it will really help.

I went through a year of being single and just dating lots a couple of years ago. In that year I got really good at just knowing and reacting quickly to my instinct, and also got very well practiced and turning people down which I have a huge problem with usually. I think I need to tune into that again. It's late 30s panic I'm sure.

@MissConductUS

He was American, so not as class-centric as someone who's been bought up in the English system, but still - it just felt like not a big deal at all.

I love American men.

So what happened to the Yank?

He also turned out to have troubling issues, hahaha. Those issues actually pretty much forced him to go back to New York and ended our dating after three months, which made the whole thing easier as I knew I needed to end it before this anyway. The whole thing was navigated by both of us with kindness etc and we still talk sometimes. So no hard feelings, but def not meant to be

@JinglingHellsBells what do you do for a career?

@thepeopleversuswork

It feels like both of you are working to a strategic gameplan into which the other one fits, as opposed to reacting to an actual person. Like you both tick one another's boxes on paper but there's no real connection or chemistry.

I would find having that much discussion about the "work" element of a relationship that early on really quite deadening as well, to be honest. It feels like a project you're managing.

There can be work and planning in relationships but not this much this soon and not without joy and fun.

👏 This first paragraph is just so incredibly spot on!

Update: I texted asking if he wants to talk tomorrow, and he said that our text conversation (we had a very tense back and forth earlier where he basically said that paying me back wasn't an issue and that I should have spoken up earlier) had made him feel shit and he wanted some space, so could we talk next week (he's also away this weekend with friends). I was going to end it in that conversation.

Ugh. Sadness is starting to hit. Plus a bit of regret about making the money thing into a big deal. He paid me back immediately and more than he needed to. I now look quite petty and it's coloured everything, distracting from the bigger and more important things - ie lack of connection etc. He's going to be able to walk away saying I was some weird penny pincher who needed to have every penny reimbursed or something. I just got quite riled up reading all the comments about him being stingey and this being deliberate etc. I'm really not sure it was

OP

If you were going to end it then it doesn’t matter what he walks away thinking.

Re read your opening post.

He's acted very predictably. He probably knows you are going to end things and is trying to avoid that conversation. I'd have just text him by now to say things aren't working for you and you wish him well. He's manipulative so I think you will need to be very finite.

@StartingAgain33 why do you care if he thinks you were being weird about money? I'm guessing that you've got plenty of friends and that when you started contact with him you were looking for a partner , you've decided he's not suitable as one. That's that.

He was making you feel shit . Do not forget that.

Someone can be a brilliant match on paper but there is just no connection in reality, and without that connection your heart will be losing out even if your head is satisfied. You say yourself that you feel this connection is missing- this alone without any if the other stuff is really important. You can't fake it, it can't grow over time- sounds like he is a nice enough guy (bit tight though) and I would move on. Tell him you wish there was a spark but there just isn't and you wish him well, but it's bye bye.