Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think my 3 year old son should be able to dress as Elsa?

393 replies

stealthbanana · 19/07/2020 00:28

My husband and I have just had an enormous fight about this...

My 3.5 year old DS loves Frozen, and has asked for me to buy him (a) a frozen dress up (ie an Elsa or anna costume) and (b) some
“Elsa and anna shoes” (a pair of sneakers one of his nursery classmates has, white with pics of elsa and anna on it).

I’ve just talked to DH about it and his response ha surprised me - he’s said he’s absolutely opposed to my son having an Elsa dress as “it’s opening up his gender identity”. We have a 1 year old daughter and I have said that I don’t think he would be as annoyed if she dresses up as eg fireman Sam and he said that “princesses are different I don’t think that being a fireman is a bad thing”. I asked about the shoes and he said he would be ok if they were “boys shoes”. I had to stop the conversation as was worried it would become a proper argument - he was very angry.

AIBU to think that it’s a total non big deal that a 3 year old wants to dress up as a princess and has nothing to do with their sexuality or gender identity as an adult?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
lockdownparty · 19/07/2020 12:21

People didn't used to agonise about small children dressing up like this.

DB and I had a dressing up box (mixture of parents old clothes, bought things and made things). We dressed up as whatever we fancier and I doubt our parents paid the slightest bit of attention other than "oh that's lovely dear, stop jumping on the bed".

SleepingStandingUp · 19/07/2020 12:24

@NorfolkKnights

Unless it’s Halloween then no.

If you do let him have the dress be prepared for your husband to avoid being within 40 feet of your son.

If my DH wouldn't be within 40ft of DS for something he was wearing, he'd be very welcome to pack a bag and go even further away
WaterOffADucksCrack · 19/07/2020 12:25

Why is my husband so aggressively against this Because being a male is so much better than bring a female. But he won't say it out loud because then he won't be in a position to deny sexism.

SimonJT · 19/07/2020 12:27

@NorfolkKnights

Unless it’s Halloween then no.

If you do let him have the dress be prepared for your husband to avoid being within 40 feet of your son.

If my son had another parent and they were pathetic enough to treat him differently for wearing something they liked they would be told to fuck off and the relationship would be over.

Some people may want to teach their children to be sexist arseholes, it doesn’t mean the rest of us have extremely low standards.

Pinktornado · 19/07/2020 12:29

Didn’t rtft but in case no one’s mentioned it there’s a beautiful video of his dad and his son dancing to Let it Go in Elsa dresses on youtube. Somehow it’s both dainty and manly at the same time! Show to your husband. That’s the attitude and behaviour of a great dad.

Ori38 · 19/07/2020 12:59

I talked about this thread with my DH to see what his response would be if one of our sons wanted to wear a princess dress. He basically said "no way. It wouldn't happen."

When I asked him why, he said that it's a tough, competitive world being a boy, and that boys often have to fight either physically, or using their wits to maintain their status in a group. Boys are competitive - they spot weaknesses (masculine weaknesses) very quickly in other boys and expose them.

Boys are more prone to a stringent "group mentality" which operates a merciless primal pecking order based upon each individual's usefulness to the group. Boys form groups based upon a hierarchical structure, underpinned by masculine status values. If a boy demonstrates all the animalistic "masculine" traits expected by his peers on a primal level he will fit into the group and hold his own. He will be accepted - but he must be able to maintain his ranking within the group by not displaying behaviors or attitudes that set him aside and cause him to be forcibly ejected - sometimes violently by his peers.

If his son is taught that it's ok to be male and dress like a girl, or hold stereotypically "girly" values, that boy would have a rough time. He would be picked on, bullied, mentally harassed.

DH also said that ALL men have had to run this male gauntlet whilst growing up, and you would want your son to "toughen up" in preparation for it when he inevitably has to do the same at school. It's a value system that has it's roots in survival - nothing to do with sexism or not being liberal. All about male acceptance of one another, and status ranking.

So positively primal on all levels! This is how the male thinks!!! And behaves.............

randomer · 19/07/2020 13:03

If a 3 year old knows nothing of gender and is a delightful innocent he/she could be free to make some choices about clothing. If the same 3 year old is insisiting on having an Elsa dress and it is causing friction would it not be a good idea to let it go?

roarfeckingroar · 19/07/2020 13:05

Buy your kid the dress. Your husband is being ridiculous.

LaurieMarlow · 19/07/2020 13:06

So positively primal on all levels! This is how the male thinks!!! And behaves

So should we keep reinforcing all that, causing misery for all the males who don’t fit the tired old stereotype? Convincing others that they mustn’t be ‘male’ at all and seeking to sex change?

Or do we strive to challenge it and widen the net of acceptable make behaviours so that more are can be happy and content in themselves as they are?

Hmm, difficult one Hmm

Your DH sounds like quite the catch btw.

woefully insecure.

CatsArePeopleToo · 19/07/2020 13:07

People didn't used to agonise about small children dressing up like this.
Buying dresses for boys to prove something wasn't a thing either.

SueEllenMishke · 19/07/2020 13:09

youbigdosser
When you are bringing girls up to be girls and boys up to be boys does this include things like household chores? Caring responsibilities? Subject choices and careers?

lockdownparty · 19/07/2020 13:10

Buying dresses for boys to prove something wasn't a thing either

It doesn't sound like op is trying to prove something at all.

SimonJT · 19/07/2020 13:10

@Ori38 I’m afraid I think what he has said is BS. He is clearly a supporter of the patriarchy, shame.

LannieDuck · 19/07/2020 13:14

This is such a sad thread. OP's son doesn't want to wear a dress because he wants to be a girl, or because he's gay. He wants to be Elsa. He probably wants to pretend to freeze things.

The same way my daughter wants to be Superman sometimes. And a lion the next day. And Princess Poppy the day after.

CaptainMyCaptain · 19/07/2020 13:19

*I agree with the above poster that said, people encouraged gender play now because it's trendy. The fact is cross dressing for boys and men is not a societal norm.,
Its not new at all. When I was a Nursery teacher from the early 80s, onwards boys often dressed up in dresses etc., it was completely normal and we didn't know words like 'woke'. I always ensured there was no difference between what boys and girls could play with.

CaptainMyCaptain · 19/07/2020 13:20

Bold fail. You can work it out I'm sure.

pennysea · 19/07/2020 13:21

This wouldn't even be a discussion if it was a girl wanting to dress up as a Disney Prince. The pressure we put on children to conform is unbelievable. I have no idea how many grown men I meet in my daily life who wore a Disney Princess dress during dress up when they were 3, and I don't care. I don't see the harm it could cause.

I do the the harm in telling a 3 year old that he can't do something because it's for girls. It separates him and let's is think girls are less than boys.

Ori38 · 19/07/2020 13:21

@LaurieMarlow

Your DH sounds like quite the catch btw.

Thanks for getting personal. What was the need for that statement? I was just posting another male's perspective on the reasons men might object to this scenario. I also happen to agree with him - boys think in a primal fashion and behave according to those unwritten rules.

This clearly clashes with modern societal values about all sorts of things but it is the nature of the beast so to speak. Of course you can challenge it - but what my DH was saying was that boys don't care about modern value systems. They operate this hierarchical structure in the school playground regardless of what is taught to them at home. Men know this. It's why they react strongly against any behavior or influence to do with their son(s) that might be a perceived "weakness" by said peers.

LaurieMarlow · 19/07/2020 13:24

but what my DH was saying was that boys don't care about modern value systems.

No, he’s saying he doesn’t care about them.

Lots of men out there are much more enlightened.

Loving the fact that he’s speaking for ‘all men‘ in your eyes. Watch out for that.

SimonJT · 19/07/2020 13:26

[quote Ori38]@LaurieMarlow

Your DH sounds like quite the catch btw.

Thanks for getting personal. What was the need for that statement? I was just posting another male's perspective on the reasons men might object to this scenario. I also happen to agree with him - boys think in a primal fashion and behave according to those unwritten rules.

This clearly clashes with modern societal values about all sorts of things but it is the nature of the beast so to speak. Of course you can challenge it - but what my DH was saying was that boys don't care about modern value systems. They operate this hierarchical structure in the school playground regardless of what is taught to them at home. Men know this. It's why they react strongly against any behavior or influence to do with their son(s) that might be a perceived "weakness" by said peers.[/quote]
Am I and the majority if men I know not men then?

JassyRadlett · 19/07/2020 13:30

I also happen to agree with him - boys think in a primal fashion and behave according to those unwritten rules.

What a horrible disservice to be doing to boys and men - basically saying they’re closer to dogs than women. ‘Pack mentality’.

Thank goodness those I’m related to, friends with, married to and gave birth to are nothing like that and are able to maintain kind, supportive, entirely functional relationships with their peers.

I feel really sorry for your husband, to have been socialised in such a rigid and negative way amongst boys who were clearly dragged up the same way. It must have been terribly damaging for him. I hope he is able to recover in adulthood.

Surviving1 · 19/07/2020 13:35

@SimonJT
Ori's husband explains that the Patriarchy makes life unpleasant for boys who wear dresses. Whether or not that is true, believing that it is true does not mean that you support the Patriarchy.

A relevant question might be whether parents would want to sent their 3 year old son into battle against the Patriarchy.

I watched the youtube video mentioned above. It is great that a boy and his father can dance in dresses if they want to. The more freedom the better in my book, but that video might trouble the boy in years' to come. Boys do have to run the male gauntlet as they grow up. Unlike you, I dont think that is BS.

Khadernawazkhan · 19/07/2020 13:42

Cant deny that it would be natural to feel a little uneasy about a son dressing as a woman. To sound surprised and angry is i think disingenuous. I cant recall a single time I saw a young boy dressed as a girl, when I was growing up in the 1980s.

PhilSwagielka · 19/07/2020 13:55

YANBU. I dressed up as a boy sometimes when I was younger. Kids dress up as dinosaurs but no-one worries about them turning into dinosaurs.

PhilSwagielka · 19/07/2020 13:57

Ori, men like your husband make me really glad I'm not heterosexual.