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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that living in a very messy house does impact on children

326 replies

HeatingOnInJuly · 14/07/2020 21:11

I was thinking of this based on the "small ways your parents fucked you up" thread so it kind of stems from that

My parent's house was very messy - they would say it was normal family clutter, and that it was cosy and lived in, but I'm not sure I've ever been in a house quite like it since, so I think it must have been unusually messy

Door handles would fall off and were never fixed, ancient carpets would be ripped up and the floor would be left, bare cement, for months. Piles of washing everywhere. Nappies bagged and left on the floor for days, though they made it to the bin eventually. Kitchen was frankly dirty, with sides invisible due to stuff being piled on. Nobody ever put anything away after it was used, it would just be left. I didn't realise until well into adult hood that people would immediately put something back where it belonged after use, as a matter of course, everything from bottle opener to hoover was just left. Never sat at dining table due to being piled high with shit. Never taught how to do any chores or how to clean properly and manage laundry. Cupboards unusable as they were so jammed full of stuff. The furniture itself was good quality - plenty of art on the walls, sofas were expensive, good carpets when we had it - so I think this meant it passed as arty and bohemian but actually it was a tip

Never any clean uniform or Games kit which led to detentions at school. Yelled at for losing things when things inevitably got lost the minute they were set down. Difficult to study as the rooms were kept dark with the curtains closed. We were always late because of things getting mislaid. Clothes never hung up, just picked from a communal pile that lived in a walk in closet.

Friends would have been welcome, but by the age of about 8 I was too embarrassed to invite them,but of course I couldn't tell my parents that so I made excuses.

Parents had good jobs and were comfortably off, they just couldn't be bothered to clean or tidy as there was always something they'd rather be doing.

They insisted until they were blue in the face that it didn't matter, that life was too short to waste cleaning, that sort of thing, but actually all it resulted in was a dishevelled childhood where everything seemed out of control and chaotic. If I'd told them that the house was embarrassing they just would have laughed at me.

When I moved out and had my first child, I did what I knew and for about a year or two my flat was a mess. I didn't know how to keep things clean and organised, and I read things like that "dust if you must" poem that floats around and ignored 99% of housework because I was spending time with my child. But then I noticed the same thing happening especially when nursery started, being late because everything was lying everywhere or no clothes were washed or dry, "losing"new clothes or toys in the mess and only finding them once they were outgrown.... It made me realise that while obviously there's no need to go to extremes and scrub your loo with bleach and a toothbrush every day, there's a reason why being reasonably clean and tidy is seen as a desirable life skill. I had to teach myself how to manage a home and to do the most basic tasks thanks to the Internet

The state of my childhood home had a really negative effect on me, and I could see the same thing happening with my own child. no it's not neglect or abuse, but when your house is so messy that it's not a pleasant or comfortable place to be, or when the mess is causing regular stress and impacting on other ordinary bits of life, then your child probably would quite like you to do a bit of cleaning rather than a craft activity with them, certainly once they're a bit older. I think people are really fooling themselves if they think that level of mess doesn't impact on their children

OP posts:
Nearlyalmost50 · 15/07/2020 23:19

I found FlyLady really good for giving me tips about housework which I hadn't thought of myself. I sort of thought that you had to wait for the bathroom to get dirty and then do a deep clean, it never occurred to me you could quickly do the loo and basin every day or two and the whole thing would never get disgusting in the first place! I don't follow it as it was a bit intense and I don't really want to spend that much time cleaning, but it is a great place to get some ideas if you weren't brought up with lots of cleaning, or even just to kick you up the butt if you were (my parents did clean, but I still did miss some knowledge).

AgentCooper · 15/07/2020 23:20

It has definitely affected my DH. He grew up in a messy house where things were always broken and now he’s obsessively tidy. To the point that I sometimes feel a bit under siege with it. I grew up among normal levels of clutter and tidiness and I don’t mind things like a cardigan left on a chair in the living room or a handbag beside the couch. But DH really does. I think his fear of mess is rather more a fear of the chaos in which he grew up - nobody taking any responsibility for anything, feuding family members, parents pissing money up the wall and then not paying bills so the electricity got turned off. He had a very tough childhood and at 45 it still affects him a great deal.

NorthernSpirit · 15/07/2020 23:33

I’ve not read all he posts..... but....

My GM was a dirty hoarder & although my mum & her brothers grew up an an affluent home (in the 1950’s & 60’s) they were all scared by their upbringing. None of them ever had friends around (they were too embarrassed as the house was so filthy), they never had clean clothes and they all talk about the mess they lived in.

By the time my mum got married to my dad and had kids she was a clean freak (and justifies it because of the upbringing she had) and I grew up in a house that was immaculately clean but as kids we weren’t allowed to bring friends around or make any sort of mess. We lived in fear of my mum and her very high standards. Absolute fear of doing anything that could cause a mess.

I don’t remember as a child doing my own laundry, ironing or cooking - we were never allowed in case we made a mess or it didn’t meet up to my mums very high standards.

Fortunately I think I have turned out between the 2. I hate mess and dirt, live in a clean & tidy house but am not obsessive.

My poor mum grew up living in pretty poor conditions (which I don’t think SS would allow now). But sadly SS wouldn’t get involved in the OCD life i was brought up in.

Drat123 · 16/07/2020 00:03

I grew up in a relatively tidy home, DM was a housewife and kept it clean and clutter free despite it being too small for a family of 8. However when we were due visitors, she panicked running around with a duster and barking orders for us all to put things away. I remember it being very stressful. My own home is kept clean and tidy (most of the time), but when I am due visitors or DM is due to come over, I get terrible anxiety and that same feeling of dread, and find myself rushing around tidying when the house is actually fine. I can't help it even though DM never makes any negative comments.

DH otoh grew up in a dirty, messy house with mice and had to fend for himself from a very early age due to MIL's MH issues and FIL mostly working away. As a result he doesn't have an eye for mess at all, it drives me mad that I have to almost spoonfeed him information like picking up his crap/putting on a wash/ changing his clothes daily. Basic things that even a 10 year old knows to do. I'm hopeful he'll get there one day! Due to her upbringing SIL is terribly dirty and her DC have been told many times at school that they smell and need clean uniforms. It's led to bullying from other kids and visits from SS. In fact her house is quite bad that even MIL has commented on it's state and how SIL and the DC are incredibly messy. MIL's MH improving in recent years means she is better at tidying and cleaning, so ends up cleaning SIL's house too when she can (perhaps its partly guilt because she wasn't able to teach her daughter basic cleanliness who hasn't been able to teach her kids).

isabellerossignol · 16/07/2020 00:06

Coming Clean by Kimberly Rae Miller is an interesting memoir about growing up as the child of hoarders.

genteelwoman · 16/07/2020 05:16

That sounds more like neglect than an untidy house. An untidy house is a few things out of place here and there but still presentable not piles of clothes and kitchen counters covered with stuff and dirty plates. Not safe, not normal, not okay.

Clean clothes are a must for any child. DC always have clean, ironed clothes, it's part of raising a child. Clothes must be clean (ironing is a personal choice I suppose but clothes must be clean), dirty clothes are a sign of neglect.

TheDoctorDances · 16/07/2020 07:34

I remember going to school with a dirty coat on and bedsheets rarely being changed.

Now I’m an adult, everything which is washable gets washed very frequently. I would never let me kids sleep on sheets for months at a time, or wear a coat with filthy sleeves all winter. We weren’t poor, either.

carltongirl · 16/07/2020 07:54

Thanks OP for.such an interesting thread. I was very familiar with the academic/bohemian approach which my mother called 'rich enough to be untidy'. Households of friends had parents who regarded home and self-care as rather disdained lowbrow concerns and the reading of dusty books more important. There's definitely a middle ground. I also think personality and mental health plays a part. I have a very messy teen and an obsessively tidy one. The latter has had trauma and anxiety in her life and needs that feeling of control. My aunt was diagnosed with severe chronic anxiety throughout her life and hoarded like crazy. My Dad experienced unusual and significant bereavements as a child and was a very unhappy young evacuee. He also hoarded particularly food and medicines. It's so interesting. I find some people relax then clean up while others like me need to clean up THEN relax. I'm more tidy than clean and would love to afford a cleaner. The impact on kids is very real from these threads, at both ends of the spectrum. I have a 'dusty books' friend who is quite proud of being intellectual and not cleaning and her teens increasingly spend more and more time at their Dad's. I've always wondered if it was because her house is so stuffed with stuff and its maintenance not a.priority. I can see why cleaning etc is looked down on but personally really feel good and freed up when things are in order. But then I'm on the neurotic end of things Smile

Gwenhwyfar · 16/07/2020 07:56

"changing his clothes daily."

That's not necessary (except underpants, socks and tights) and bad for the environment.

whoopsivechangedagain · 16/07/2020 08:23

I apologise but I have not read all the posts. However, the impact of living in such a 'messy' environment is very long lasting.

I was brought up in a large and very dirty/untidy house. It was not just 'messy' but parts of the house were definitely hazardous to health. I am loathe to use the word 'neglect' because none of this was intentional, but I was constantly brought before the pastoral teachers due to the state of my clothes, hair and so on.

We could not invite friends round and were actively discouraged from doing so. When one friend did come round, I was teased relentlessly at school, due to the conditions in which we lived.

This was all a very long time ago. I will state that my parents were lovely, kind, generous people, but they just could not manage certain things.

What surprised me was that I am constantly fighting against my own mess and tendency towards scruffiness. I just do not see the mess. This caused problems at work because I was hopelessly untidy and I could not tell if something was smeared or unclean.

Over the years, I have come to the conclusion that part of the reason for my parents' messiness and my own could be related to issues with executive functioning . Yet, what really saddens me is that I did let things slip when my children were younger and my youngest son experienced the same sort of bullying that I experienced as a child.

I will add that I think that as a society we expect ridiculous standards of household orderliness, but in my childhood experience, the level of mess was a hazard to health.

CodenameVillanelle · 16/07/2020 08:52

@Gwenhwyfar

"I think they was fruit flies that flew"

I get fruit flies in my food bin some summers and I don't think it's caused by my being dirty.

Yes because you have food in your bin that is rotting, unless you change it twice a day Confused There is a difference between having food rotting in a bin and out on a surface. Can't you see that?
MessAllOver · 16/07/2020 09:00

He had a very tough childhood and at 45 it still affects him a great deal.

SadFlowers. I'm so sorry to hear about all the children affected by this well into adulthood. There's a limited amount children can do, but to hear about them getting teased at school, trying their best to clean things up and growing up without necessary life skills is just so sad.

We have a mess problem here which is partly because I am quite messy and partly due to not having enough storage. It's not that we have too much stuff (we had a big clear-out before we moved) but our house is a modern one with no storage at all. We were due to have cupboards built before lockdown but that's on hold now. I do my best to make sure toys/crafts etc. are neatly packed in storage boxes so DS has a clear floor to play on.

Still, this thread has made me determined to get on with sorting out our storage issues. Although the house is clean and DS always has clean clothes, he's old enough to start learning to tidy up after himself and that's much easier in an organised house where everything has a place.

Zaphodsotherhead · 16/07/2020 09:28

Thinking about it, my mother had a rather chaotic upbringing which caused her to go the other way and become (to my mind, I'm sure she thought it was completely normal) a little obsessive about cleaning and keeping things tidy. We were never allowed near the Airing Cupboard of Doom to get our own clothes out, she was the only one with access, so i could never change my clothes. It was one outfit, laid out for us, per day, and no changes. Couldn't even get a towel out without shouting and swearing resulting about the 'mess' we'd left behind.

So I went the other way and (see my previous posts) decided to excuse myself from tidying the kids' rooms once they were old enough to take responsibility for them themselves (they didn't and lived in squalour in their bedrooms, whilst I kept the rest of the house tidyish).

Maybe they are all now busily rebelling back the other way and their houses are my mother's levels of obsessively neat... (they don't seem to be, but it's hard to tell as a visitor...)

It does seem to go in cycles.

longwayoff · 16/07/2020 09:50

@StormBaby, those neglected stepchildren have a father? His children live in those circumstances and he needs to change it.

SinisterBumFacedCat · 16/07/2020 10:30

Interesting thread. My DF was raised in an extremely messy house, hoarding rubbish in piles etc and he never tidied up. My DM is very neat and tidy, but isn’t OCD about cleaning. When they divorced and he left we had to spend the weekend scrubbing and tidying the living room which he lived in. I never stayed at his place because of the mess, it would have been a health hazard. He has just never been interested in his surroundings, I think he MH problems were a contributing factor.

I try and keep tidy but I suspect that to get and keep everything to a high standard I would constantly be cleaning and tidying and I don’t really want to be doing that. It’s clean enough, but like previous posters there’s bugger all storage in my house and the odd unfinished diy project.

ShesMadeATwatOfMePam · 16/07/2020 11:22

My dh grew up in a disgusting house. Both parents alcoholics, nobody gave a shit about making sure the children were washed or clean. Wore school uniform to bed and then got up and went to school in it for a week, they didn't know any different. Nobody checking whether they had done any housework, his little brothers window didn't close so nobody fixed it, he just froze in bed every night. Nobody sorted the damp until the living room ceiling fell down one night. Dh didn't know what he didn't know until he moved in with his first girlfriend and she had to teach him everything. It's absolutely neglect. The childrens friends loved coming over, they could do whatever the hell they wanted and nobody cared.

ShesMadeATwatOfMePam · 16/07/2020 11:24

Home work that is not housework

Gwenhwyfar · 16/07/2020 13:02

"An untidy house is a few things out of place here and there but still presentable not piles of clothes and kitchen counters covered with stuff and dirty plates. Not safe, not normal, not okay."

Not enough for anyone official to talk to the parents about it though so it remains the parents' choice if they want to live like that, unfortunately.

Gwenhwyfar · 16/07/2020 13:04

"Yes because you have food in your bin that is rotting, unless you change it twice a day confused"

I don't have an outside space so can't 'change' it.
I've now taken to putting the food bin in the fridge in the summer, but I won't to point out that having fruit flies is not proof of a dirty person.

CodenameVillanelle · 16/07/2020 13:40

@Gwenhwyfar

"Yes because you have food in your bin that is rotting, unless you change it twice a day confused"

I don't have an outside space so can't 'change' it.
I've now taken to putting the food bin in the fridge in the summer, but I won't to point out that having fruit flies is not proof of a dirty person.

Fruit flies grow in rotting food. It's absolutely fine to have rotting food in the kitchen bin, it's to be expected in the hot weather. In the summer you may get flies. However the person who mentioned flies was talking about their child going to take a forkful of food that was left out and intended for consumption which had flies in. That's completely different to getting flies in your bin. That IS the sign of a dirty person.
WindsorBlues · 16/07/2020 13:43

To stop a fruit fly Infestation just put a small bowl of apple cider vinegar with a few drops of fairy liquid beside your food bin.

StormBaby · 16/07/2020 13:50

@longwayoff weve been to court, the neglect was and is completely ignored. In fact he was told in court to stop bothering to report it as it just gets filed as malicious as its from him. He was told to let them live like that and let other outside agencies notice, so he did. The lack of dental care and eye care has been noticed, yet SS do nothing. The children being dirty and smelly has been noticed by peers and parents and reported to school and SS, yet nothing gets done. One child disclosed to an auntie that she didn't feel safe there, this was reported to the nspcc, nothing was done. Its 100‰ not malicious. Nobody ever welfare checks the house, they all just prewarn her so she can cover her tracks. They just aren't neglected enough.

IceCreamSummer20 · 16/07/2020 18:28

@StormBaby that is really sad, to be ignored. What happened to safeguarding children?

IceCreamSummer20 · 16/07/2020 18:32

The interesting thing for me is that there seems to be a veneer of acceptability, maybe particularly in middle class academia/Bohemia, that mess is a sign you are creative and concentrating on the kids, on relaxation and are fun.

And that people with tidy houses are uptight and oppressive.

When isn’t it better to have a relatively tidy and clean house for children’s wellbeing? Chaos is hard on kids, of any form, emotional, or visible in their house.

Dontforgetyourbrolly · 16/07/2020 18:50

Of course children should have a clean and tidy environment, health and safety for one reason.
My house is very clean and tidy , I work very hard to keep it that way , and to be honest i actually do enjoy housework as I find it alleviates stress, and I totally understand that's my own opinion.
However, I have been made to feel bad about this by some people with the classic comment " a home is supposed to be lived in , not a show home " which i find necessarily harsh. My house isn't posh enough to be a " show home ", but it is always clean and tidy, it's not a crime .
Ds is 6 and he knows he needs to tidy up any mess he makes .

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