What’s the problem with Trans?

[Karenista]

Posting for traffic:
Can someone please take the time to explain to me what the issue is with trans women? Or trans rights in general?

I consider myself a feminist, but since reading all the posts about publicly ‘coming out as GC’, I now feel... almost... not feminist enough because I believe in trans rights.

Where’s the middle ground? Or am I now going to feel alienated from ‘GC feminists?’

Crikey this again

Can we add women's sports to that list?

Basically @Karenista, being pro-trans makes you more of a feminist

No. It makes you somewhat of an intersectional feminist.

Who do you think you are that you are in charge of some graph of feminism?

But thanks for proving that feminists who support self-id, above and beyond the safety of women and girls, are a better type of feminist eye roll

There are hundreds of thread on this already. Try reading them, OP.

Regarding the pronoun debate. I've been called 'Sir' on occasion throughout my life. I don't like it, but get on with things without complaint. It isn't that big a deal tbh. So, why do I now get blasted when a transwoman wants me to call them she? Where were they when I got called 'Sir'? Why is it so onesided?

Would you like me to elaborate further? Yes, as my own experience would tend to make your list redundent!

Use of correct pronouns Call yourself what you like. Just don't try to make it illegal if others don't know/use the terms you prefer.

Gender Reassignment discrimination Mmmm! That's already protected. Use the laws that exist!

Inappropriate Questions What the actual fuck?

Equality Monitoring How? You want transwomen to be counted as women. Women point out the HUGE number of areas, including medicine, that will totally fuck up!

Less chance of accessing Further and Higher Education Nonsense! I say that as an ex Hod in FE and long term lecturer at HE. Quite the opposite in fact - students and staff alike - go on, ask me. I'll give you 30 years of supporting a transman through her full medical transition to him, including standing up for him at his recent wedding; I'll tell you about the various students who struggled with being gay, trans, alocholic whatever, and why I was the informal counsellor of choice - for 20+ years! I'll tell you of the moral rights and dignity of most trans individuals who access FE and HE as students or staff and how current TRA actions have derided them, denigrated their journeys and made a public dog and pony show of their lives. Utterly disgusting!

Less chance of accessing the correct health and social care for their needs. Ueah! See my note about monitoring, equality and otherwise!

Hate Crime!!!! Bollocks! Calling a transwoman he, by design or error is not a hate crime! Though some police forces have acted as though it is!

Sexual Violence and Abuse Please don't! The number of times the real figures no that topic have been pointed to, c+p'd for those who insist on spreading the weird lies and misinformation that lies behind those words!

DISCRIMINATION (especially on Mumsnet) You are going to have to explain that one clearly. I think you mean "when women refuse to shut the fuck up and keep on fighting to retain the legalities of being women. But you could mean anything, like the constant assertion that transwomens rights are indeed human rights, but they are not female rights!

Would you like me to elaborate further?

Here is some useful information for you. I would also suggest you follow Munroe Bergdorf on social media should you wish to educate yourself further

And what the fuck can Munroe Bergdorf teach me about being a woman? I am one and have been since long before she was a twinkle in her parents' eyes. She's not!

It is a difficult space to be in when you feel strongly feminist in terms of protecting women but then also believe that Trans people shouldn't be discriminated against.

It does seem a bit much though to join a sisterhood and then make demands that make things (even) worse for that sisterhood, if you get what I mean.

It would be nice if women were able to discuss concerns without having labels thrown around and having themselves 'cancelled', that's for sure.

It took a while to write this post whilst cooking dinner so the thread may have moved on.
I can only speak for myself.

I have no issues with trans women or transmen if they live their lives in a way that respects others rights. I think everyone should have a right to a job and housing without discrimination.

There are several things I do have issues with. This is a list of what comes to mind.

1. Penises have no place in women's safe spaces, that includes women's refuges, hospital wards, changing rooms and prisons.

1. No child should ever be given untested drugs or medical intervention because they don't meet gender norms, or because they would feel safer as the other gender, or because they are homosexual and their family doesn't approve.

1. Girls sports need to be kept for girls. There are many reasons why sports are sex segregated and that needs to be protected.

1. Debate is being closed down. Freedom of speech is being closed down. It has become unacceptable to state the bleeding obvious that women do not have penises and men do not menstuate.

5 Many trans women are trying to reinforce the stereotypes that women have spent years trying to break out of. That women should always wear makeup and heals and pretty dresses and have lovely nails, and should never wear joggings and a hoodie with short hair.

curious excellent point by point rebuttal. I don't think s/he is coming back now that we've been instructed to 'educate ourselves' and follow Munroe Bergdorf 😂😂😂

@ktp100. I don’t think it’s a difficult space to be in at all to be GC and believe trans people shouldn’t be discriminated against

I’ve never met a GC feminist (feminist) who thinks trans people should be discriminated against

@marns

Yes, it includes FTM transgender people. They're female.

I'm a natal woman, not transgender in any shape or form, but ..... I shave my head and am, under the gender system (which is a complete load of bollocks), somewhat 'masculine' in appearance.

Where would you like me to piss?

Trans men usually pass better so would probably go unnoticed in the men's.

However they are biologically female so would require the sanitary pad dispensers and the bins and the increased number if cubicles in the women's so yes they would be welcome in the female space because they are as at risk when vulnerable as other women . Transmen aren't usually as tall or as intimidating as biological males are . We usually "know" . Its an instinctive thing really. Outside of photo shop and filters and in real life there's just a sixth sense really

Where's OP gone?

twitter probably?

Or desperately trying to find these facts that have yet to be produced

Dancing I hoped they'd come back and make a noise about inapporopriate questions... I was being facetious at that point, waiting to deliver a punch line (not an actual punch of course, being a natal female!)

OP, I don’t really want to repeat all the brilliant points above, they’re more eloquently written than I am able to express.

What I do want to say is, yes of course it’s difficult. If you’re a transwoman, your part of a disadvantaged group which faces all sorts of prejudice and threat. I can only imagine how it must feel to identify as a member of the opposite sex but not truly be one, be able to access the spaces you feel you should etc. However, the thing for me is - women’s rights are TOO important. As pp have said above, it’s not just about shared spaces but about hard won rights that protect women and girls and acknowledge our own threats. I am sorry if that means transwomen don’t feel they have a ‘proper’ place as women but we must look past the ‘be kind’ and ‘transwomen are women’ headlines and really think about the issues.

We usually "know" . Its an instinctive thing really. Outside of photo shop and filters and in real life there's just a sixth sense really

Exactly. I shave my head and wear Doc Marts but .... it's not hard to establish that I'm female. And if you get it wrong, I won't be offended. It's happened very occasionally and it's no big deal

Here is some useful information for you. I would also suggest you follow Munroe Bergdorf on social media should you wish to educate yourself further (I suspect not). HTH

Lol. MG educating people? On what exactly? Teaching children to contact them on trans issues. Sound a bit predictory to me. Or calling women hairy barren lesbians. Doesn't seem to like actual women much. Nah thanks. The knowledge MG has could be written on the back of a postage stamp imo.

@catgirl1976 Bad wording from me, there. I didn't mean that feminists think trans people should be discriminated against at all.

I just meant it's difficult to be, well, in between. To genuinely care about protecting women's rights, language and spaces but to be uncomfortable with the amount of aggressive 'trans women are not women' stance of many people on here.

I'm conflicted and I think the OP is, too.

I’m here @DomDoesWotHeWants, I don’t have any points to argue as that’s not why I posted. I’m gratefully reason the responses and reading links attached.

Reading*

@Frenchfancy

It took a while to write this post whilst cooking dinner so the thread may have moved on. I can only speak for myself.

I have no issues with trans women or transmen if they live their lives in a way that respects others rights. I think everyone should have a right to a job and housing without discrimination.

There are several things I do have issues with. This is a list of what comes to mind.

1. Penises have no place in women's safe spaces, that includes women's refuges, hospital wards, changing rooms and prisons.

1. No child should ever be given untested drugs or medical intervention because they don't meet gender norms, or because they would feel safer as the other gender, or because they are homosexual and their family doesn't approve.

1. Girls sports need to be kept for girls. There are many reasons why sports are sex segregated and that needs to be protected.

1. Debate is being closed down. Freedom of speech is being closed down. It has become unacceptable to state the bleeding obvious that women do not have penises and men do not menstuate.

5 Many trans women are trying to reinforce the stereotypes that women have spent years trying to break out of. That women should always wear makeup and heals and pretty dresses and have lovely nails, and should never wear joggings and a hoodie with short hair.

This is where I am too brilliant and eloquent.

@CodenameVillanelle yesss!