What’s the problem with Trans?

[Karenista]

Posting for traffic:
Can someone please take the time to explain to me what the issue is with trans women? Or trans rights in general?

I consider myself a feminist, but since reading all the posts about publicly ‘coming out as GC’, I now feel... almost... not feminist enough because I believe in trans rights.

Where’s the middle ground? Or am I now going to feel alienated from ‘GC feminists?’

@ThatsHowWeRowl

The point is that human bodies are varied and ambiguous- so is the human brain, which is a part of the body.

Yes it is. But a brain in a male body is by definition a male brain. That brain originated from the same single cell that the rest of that male body originated from, it's a male brain.

The idea that it's possible for a 'lady brain' to somehow end up in a male body at some stage has absolutely no basis in science. There is no medical consensus which says that you would be able to look at different brains, on say a brain scan, and be able to tell with absolute certainty which were male brains and which were female. In order to determine that for certain, you would have to take cell samples and look at chromosomes.

If a male doesn't fit into the box of what men should be and identifies more closely with stereotypes about females, then that isn't because something is wrong with their brain, its because those boxes of what men and women should be, and what they should identify with, are bullshit.

Thank you for that post that is a great way of explaining things.

NotMyTimes 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

@CaveMum

Note that the Freemasons also allow transwomen, providing they joined when they were men.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45030075

No transmen though, dread the thought!

It's almost as if trans men are being discriminated against based on their sex. Which they insist is male and cannot be discriminated against!

bucles
Thank you for that. Not good for my blood pressure though.
All it does is confirm to me that transwoman aren’t woman as you rarely see women writing or talking in some violent and lewd ways.
And the bloke sincerely arguing that lesbians who don’t want to suck dick are transphobes .... I have heard about people like this but not actually seen evidence of it.

I did find the jar opening joke quite amusing though.

Re: male/female brains. Even if there were such a thing, if a 'female brain' was found in a male that would just expand what we thought of as male brains and vice versa.

What I really don't understand is the internal logic of TRAs when they argue sex is a spectrum, men can have vaginas, women can have penises and those that don't agree just need to shed their bigoted, conservative attitudes...yet they advocate for sex reassignment surgery. So some transpeople can have those bigoted attitudes where they associate male genitalia with male but not anybody else?
If they truly believed it was better for everyone to shake this old fashioned construction of a sex binary why are they allowing those vulnerable people they represent to surgically alter their bodies in line with that binary?
If lesbians can have penises and men can have cervices why promote binders and top surgery and organ removal at all? Why the need for hormones? It's fighting against its own message.

If lesbians can have penises and men can have cervices why promote binders and top surgery and organ removal at all? Why the need for hormones? It's fighting against its own message

This is a question that remains unanswered. The binary has to exist in order to be able to define yourself against it but simultaneously we are bigoted fir talking about sex. Whilst no one answers what they are transitioning from or too if it does indeed not exist

Popping in to see if amijustparanoidorjuststoned ever came back with a link, a study - anything really - to back up the claim that trans ppl are discriminated against in further education. Sadly not. Oh well.

A claim that has no basis in fact, how surprising.

If lesbians can have penises and men can have cervices why promote binders and top surgery and organ removal at all? Why the need for hormones? It's fighting against its own message

From Issendai's blog, someone who writes extensively about narcissism and its impact upon relationships: www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html

She often notes the holding of contradictory beliefs, and the difference in viewpoint as to what creates reality.

"The difference isn't a matter of style, it's a split between two ways of perceiving the world. In one worldview, emotion is king. Details exist to support emotion. If a member gives one set of details to describe how angry she is about a past event, and a few days later gives a contradictory set of details to describe how sad she is about the same event, both versions are legitimate because both emotions are legitimate. Context is malleable because the full picture may not support the member's emotion.... emotion creates reality."

In the other view, reality creates emotion, and not all emotions are justifiable when viewed objectively in light of the facts. Acting on emotions is something that must be justified by facts and should not cross certain codes of standard behaviour. You can see this kind of thinking on AIBU and chat any day of the week.

I recommend the whole essay, it's an interesting read.

@Michelleoftheresistance
Thank you for that link. I now have to resist the urge to deep dive into estranged parents forums and sofa diagnose them.

But trans people already have more rights than people who are not trans. They can get boob jobs, hair removal and cosmetic nose jobs on the NHS. Women cannot.
Not only can transwomen run for "Women's Officer" in the political parties and become consultant at women's shelters, but they appear to have a better chance of getting the job than women.
They have also managed to shut down political meetings, clubs and discussion groups. Women can't do that.
And whereas you get banned from Twitter if you are female and say that transwomen are not women, transwomen do not get banned from Twitter even when they threaten to kill, rape or doxx women.
Transwomen are considered to be more likely to get raped, assaulted and/or murdered than women even though the statistics say otherwise and even though statistically they are more likely to commit a crime than to be a victim of a crime.

But hey .... it is all oh so brave and stunning.

@amijustparanoidorjuststoned

Please can you share the evidence you said there was re trans people having less opportunity to access higher education? Thanks.

The transwomen I'd read about were decent people who just wanted to be accepted for what they were and had been down a long hard road to get there
But those decent people aren't speaking up (or rarely) and are allowing the TRAs to speak for them. They need to stand and be counted

Sorry to use this as an anology, but how is saying that any different to where I've seen the EXACT same thing said about Muslims on a FB post a while back?
As in, ordinary Muslims need to stand up and say not in my name?
How about, they're just normal, peaceful, lawful abiding people not extremists?
It's demonising an entire group of people in both scenarios and it's sickening.

Lemonade it's completely different and you know it. I call bullshit. SO MANY TRA are aggressive, don't want rights for trans people, but want women's rights for male-bodied people.

Lemonade I think if people are claiming to speak for you, when they do not, then you do have an obligation to make that known.
It's not fair, but those claiming to speak for others create the problem.

I'm a Christian. I make clear at every opportunity that the anti abortion, anti gay Christians campaigning violently (mainly in America) do not speak for me.

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains

The transwomen I'd read about were decent people who just wanted to be accepted for what they were and had been down a long hard road to get there But those decent people aren't speaking up (or rarely) and are allowing the TRAs to speak for them. They need to stand and be counted

Sorry to use this as an anology, but how is saying that any different to where I've seen the EXACT same thing said about Muslims on a FB post a while back?
As in, ordinary Muslims need to stand up and say not in my name?
How about, they're just normal, peaceful, lawful abiding people not extremists?
It's demonising an entire group of people in both scenarios and it's sickening.

Because the ordinary law abiding Muslims who stand up and say not in my name get supported and applauded.

The ordinary law abiding trans people who stand up and say not in my name get doxxed, threatened with violence, called truscum and told to suck lady-dick.

So quite understandable they keep their heads down.

There are plenty of decent trans men and trans women. I have met them, come to care for them and been a supporter of trans rights for them. But their community has been taken over and they are now being called 'truscum'. That alone was a 'peak trans' moment for me.

Seeing people defend the TRAs that harass fellow their trans people for not agreeing and seeing these people call the rest of us transphobic for it is another 'peak trans' moment. Every post I make, I think about whether I would be happy for a particular couple of my friends to read it. Every post I read from others, I think, would they find it offensive? That's my meter for being a decent person.

I will not stand with the TRAs. Not just for me, not just for fellow women, but because I don't want to endorse their behaviour towards other trans people!

*harass their fellow trans people

Because the ordinary law abiding Muslims who stand up and say not in my name get supported and applauded.

The ordinary law abiding trans people who stand up and say not in my name get doxxed, threatened with violence, called truscum and told to suck lady-dick.

So quite understandable they keep their heads down.

This. Exactly this.

My friend who is trans was called a "trans traitor" and TERF lover for saying they felt JK Rowling's essay articulately explained the experiences of women that shape the concerns around legislation and that all parties need to listen to each other and learn from each other.

The reaction from TRAs was a vitriolic, aggressive character assassination that ended in them deleting their twitter account.

Silencing the people you claim to speak rather suggests you probably didn't speak for them in the first place.

TRAs are making life so much harder for the vast majority of trans people by being divisive and trying to turn a nuanced discussion into a goodies and baddies situation.

I've seen on FWR the way trans people are spoken to if they dare to express any experience or opinion outside of the political doctrine. It's shocking, the most recent incident was vicious beyond anything I've seen expressed to other GC MNetters. The (very calm, rational and mild) poster was pretty much accused of being a traitor, an 'Uncle Tom'.

I blame no one at all for not wanting to invite and stand up under this abuse, anyone sensible would be afraid to. It's one more aspect of this new and immoral religion that deeply troubles me, as does the disowning, silencing and bullying of detransitioners. Most posters are clear on the difference between trans people and the TRA political lobby, many of whom are not actually trans, and many of whom are finding it a useful bandwagon on which to hang their own personal agendas.

@Karenista

Posting for traffic: Can someone please take the time to explain to me what the issue is with trans women? Or trans rights in general?

I consider myself a feminist, but since reading all the posts about publicly ‘coming out as GC’, I now feel... almost... not feminist enough because I believe in trans rights.

Where’s the middle ground? Or am I now going to feel alienated from ‘GC feminists?’

The "issue" is that it is to all appearances the last acceptable bigotry, especially around here. Stick with your original thought, there are plenty of us feminists who support trans people's human rights. If you feel alienated from bigots you are better off.

I support trans peoples human rights, I also support those of women. A movement that removes human rights from one group is not a human rights movement.

Biology matters to women. Its very odd to see people claim it doesnt, on a parenting website.

I support trans rights. I support human rights. I support women's rights. All these rights are enshrined in law. If trans rights expand to include transwomen appropriating the rights of women's sex based rights, then this means that women no longer have sex based rights and protections. I do not support the erosion of women's sex based rights to accommodate born males. This puts women at risk. Women's sex based rights are in place to reduce those risks. Some may call those of us that don't want to give our rights and protections away bigots. But thats bollocks. It's not bigotry. It's common sense.

@Michelleoftheresistance

I've seen on FWR the way trans people are spoken to if they dare to express any experience or opinion outside of the political doctrine. It's shocking, the most recent incident was vicious beyond anything I've seen expressed to other GC MNetters. The (very calm, rational and mild) poster was pretty much accused of being a traitor, an 'Uncle Tom'.

I blame no one at all for not wanting to invite and stand up under this abuse, anyone sensible would be afraid to. It's one more aspect of this new and immoral religion that deeply troubles me, as does the disowning, silencing and bullying of detransitioners. Most posters are clear on the difference between trans people and the TRA political lobby, many of whom are not actually trans, and many of whom are finding it a useful bandwagon on which to hang their own personal agendas.

The most recent incident of really horrible mocking to a trans person who started a thread was from a trans woman who referred to themselves as a TRA. That might be the thread that you mean, Michelleoftheresistance.

Posters seemed to know the OP, and were supportive, while the self-defined TRA and a couple of supporters mocked, belittled and shut them down.

I didn't post all but checked again the next day, and I was shocked at what MN permitted the self-defined TRA to post without it being deleted.

Trans people who have spoken against the TWAW dogma and detransitioners are treated appallingly by many trans activists. I also don't blame them for not expressing their views in public.

I think that was a thread I missed Christina - it sounds pretty horrible. This one was a long thread where a well known, long term MNetter who is trans and GC, offered an opinion and a MNetter who often represents the TRA political viewpoint on threads turned rather.... exceptionally unpleasant to them.