What’s the problem with Trans?

[Karenista]

Posting for traffic:
Can someone please take the time to explain to me what the issue is with trans women? Or trans rights in general?

I consider myself a feminist, but since reading all the posts about publicly ‘coming out as GC’, I now feel... almost... not feminist enough because I believe in trans rights.

Where’s the middle ground? Or am I now going to feel alienated from ‘GC feminists?’

Trans people have the same rights in lawas I do. We each have the right to access spaces such as toilets, changing rooms and refuges in accordance with our biological sex. We have the same rights with regard to education, employment, housing and healthcare. We can both change our names and dress as we like (I do realise that a lot of workplaces do have different rules as to what men and women can wear, however, and I would fully support a gender neutral dress code within workplaces)

The difference is that trans people believe that their innate "gender" differs to their biological sex and some would like areas such as changing rooms to be separated on the basis of gender (by self ID) rather than sex. I do not agree that a biological male should be able to, on a whim, self identify his way into a space reserved for women.

John Cleese. He normally likes to post an innocent Twitter post saying something similar and then buggers off while the world burns down.

Karenista, if you really want to know, spend half an hour on the feminist chat threads. Not just toilets and changing rooms. Pay gap data, sports, crime stats, trans women taking political spots historically reserved for women (in NY recently). The list is pretty bloody long.

@Karenista no we’re talking about domestic violence shelters, female prisons etc. Spaces that women need as a single sex space.

But regarding toilets, changing rooms etc, there are cultures and religions that prohibit women from sharing a space such as a toilet with males outside their immediate family. They would then be excluded from shared toilets, changing rooms etc. That’s thousands of women who no longer have access to public spaces because they are not able to use the facilities any longer.

Transwomen do have rights. They have human rights. They don't have women's sex based rights. Obviously. And why on earth should they.

I admit that I would struggle with pronouns for a non-binary or gender fluid person. I'd also struggle on how to ask someone if they were those categories because I'd be making an assumption based on what I think that means.

I'm a foreign woman so some of the other factors are applicable to me. I'm not sure that you can legislate for them all eg inappropriate questions

Use of correct pronouns- no one has the right to dictate how people talk about them when not there.

Gender Reassignment discrimination- protected characteristic in law

Inappropriate Questions- im.asked every shift im.im.gonna have another baby

Equality Monitoring- how does labelling them men or women help then? Will disappear into regular stats

Less chance of accessing Further and Higher Education- many usially poor people or disabled people dont either not trans specific

Less chance of accessing the correct health and social care for their needs- not solved by incorrect markers on records potentially fatal infact

Hate crime- 62 percent of school girls sexualky harassed walking to school. Sex not a protected hate crime characteristic funnily enough though.

Sexual Violence and Abuse 2 women a week are murdered by partners. Rape convictions shocking

DISCRIMINATION (especially on Mumsnet) why is biology recognition discrimination?

Correct use of pronouns is not a human right
Gender reassignment is a protected characteristic under the equality act
Not being subjected to inappropriate questions is not a human right
Equality monitoring applies to everyone and is voluntary
Why do you feels trans people have less chance of accessing education or health care?
Hate crime legislation protects trans people (but not women on the basis of hate crimes motivated by sex)
Sexual violence and abuse is not only experienced by trans people and is experienced far more frequently by women. It’s also illegal.
Discrimination is covered under the equality act (for gender reassignment)

So yes, I would like you to elaborate as, unless I’ve misread that post, this was to demonstrate the rights not currently afforded to trans people I am still struggling to see what they are.

Stats please. Link to this evidence amijust?

@Soubriquet I’ll take a look. I didn’t mean to irritate you. All I managed to find was the ‘coming out as GC’ posts. I’ll try different tag lines or something.

OP, how can you know you’ve got the answer you want when you don’t even know what you’re asking?

Basically @Karenista, being pro-trans makes you more of a feminist. So please don't worry, you're one of the good ones.

Just now on Twitter I've seen a transwoman stating that women who are traumatised by males because they've been raped have no right to want a shelter to be female only, and should "get past" their trauma and just lock their door.

No.

Transgender people have all the same rights as everyone else, plus (quite rightly) the additional right to be protected from discrimination and harassment on the basis of gender reassignment.

They do not have (or need) the right to insist that traumatised women "get past it" in order to validate their self-proclaimed identity.

Enough.

I'm angry today.

@Karenista

So we’re talking dressing rooms, public toilets etc? Thanks for clarifying.

I’m afraid I’m not here for an argument - I just wanted some clarification on how people feel; I don’t really know how to answer what I think the problem is, or what rights they don’t have.

If it’s about protecting space then I understand why people feel like that.

Dressing rooms and toilets yes, but also Prison cells Rape crisis centres Female wards in hospital Female psychiatric units Domestic violence shelters All women shortlists Gynaecological procedures Counsellors for survivors of male sexual violence

Those are a selection of scenarios in which it is reasonable and proportionate to exclude males. Transwomen are males, and require no surgery, assessment or approval to be treated as women in the law. We as feminists want to maintain the exemption that exists in the law to exclude these males from certain spaces and roles.

hi, there is much evidence to suggest that trans people are less likely to be allowed access to education because of discrimination.

Please elaborate on this.

There is nothing wrong with trans individuals - it's the activism that is problematic. Lots of threats of violence and "suck on my lady dick" sort of thing.
If mens toilets are a problem get men to change their behavior etc

Basically @Karenista, being pro-trans makes you more of a feminist. So please don't worry, you're one of the good ones.

Thank you, that’s absolutely hilarious. Made my day

Hi @Karenista

This thread is a great place to start: Break it down for me

The problem is if a man can say he is a woman because that's what he feels like, ie. self id, any man can then gain access to sex segregated spaces which were created to protect women. The problem isn't necessarily transwomen gaining access, but any male who wants to.

Sport is segregated by sex due to differences in male and female bodies, notably males being physically stronger. Male bodied people who have transitioned competing against female bodied people is going to give them an unfair advantage. Female's won't stand a chance in sport.

Also human beings can't change sex. Saying that seems to be transphobic according to some.

I have no issues with trans beyond the bathroom debate. But that's a whole other story.

I've been called transphobic a lot for my opinions but I believe that there should be protected women's only spaces, like changing rooms and bathrooms. Not because I believe trans people are predators (I don't) but some people are predators and I worry that allowing anyone to walk into any space is asking for trouble. Because how it looks to me (if anyone wants to correct me I'd be all ears) that you can self identify depending on mood.

So a male (outwardly looking male, never before had gender dysphoria) can decide to put on a dress and walk into a females changing rooms and prey on people. It happened in Canada recently a trans women preyed on teenage girls in changing rooms, tried to sue female beauty parlours for refusing to wax his genital and asking teenage girls how they apply tampons.

This is my concern.

Trans people should have rights to use the spaces they feel they fit but everyone has the right to feel protected too

I'll bite,

There's a problem with a trans man placed in a women's prison when he still has a penis and has a history of convictions for sexually assaulting women. They should not be allowed in a place of sanctuary where women are recovering from physical assault by men. It's wrong
when 1st, 2nd and 3rd places are won by trans men in a women's race.

No-one cares if a man wants to be a woman or vice versa, what they care about is retaining all that women have fought hard to achieve.

There's no problem with trans people. There's a problem with predatory and misogynistic men posing as trans women and laws that do away with any protection women and trans people currently have against them. There's also a problem with puberty blockers for children too young to know if they're trans or not that could render them infertile in the future. All without medical oversight.

@flowery

@catgirl1976 gosh, you sound delightful. Every human has a right to be who they want to be and to be respected for it.

[quote amijustparanoidorjuststoned]@netflixismysidehustle oh boy.

Use of correct pronouns
Gender Reassignment discrimination
Inappropriate Questions
Equality Monitoring
Less chance of accessing Further and Higher Education
Less chance of accessing the correct health and social care for their needs.
Hate Crime!!!!
Sexual Violence and Abuse
DISCRIMINATION (especially on Mumsnet)

Would you like me to elaborate further?[/quote]
Lack of access to equality monitoring? That's new!
What do we want?
A questionnaire!
When do we want it?
Now!