What’s the problem with Trans?

[Karenista]

Posting for traffic:
Can someone please take the time to explain to me what the issue is with trans women? Or trans rights in general?

I consider myself a feminist, but since reading all the posts about publicly ‘coming out as GC’, I now feel... almost... not feminist enough because I believe in trans rights.

Where’s the middle ground? Or am I now going to feel alienated from ‘GC feminists?’

There isn’t a problem with trans in the GC circles.

Some mainstream, vocal and powerful people on the trans activism movement have a big problem with women and women’s rights and boundaries.

This isn’t a trans rights issue. It’s a women’s rights issue.

I don’t know a single GC feminist who would say that they didn’t support trans rights. Many have previously campaigned for greater acceptance of GNC people.

But there do appear to be very many trans people (not all but quite few new wavers) who think mouthy feminist bitches should shut up and sit down. Consent, safety and free speech seem to only apply to the right kind of people (not women). Where have we heard that before?

The misogyny is insane and cheered on by all sorts of people who should know better.

In simple terms, the "problem" is when (as part of campaigns for trans rights) people confuse the distinction between gender & sex. Gender is a social construct. It is fluid and clearly people align with whichever gender they feel most suits them. "Feminine" or "female" is the term describing the stereotypical presentation historically associated with women. Gender arises where societies attribute inflexible social roles and responsibilities on the basis of biological sex, and gives us a means to describe adherence to those social roles regardless of sex. In modern western society it arguably no longer has any real meaning, as people of any sex can love & marry any adult they like, and can dress and perform whatever job they want, regardless of their biological sex.

In some cases people who feel their gender is not aligned to the sex it is traditionally associated with, may make changes to their appearance (including reproductive organs) to create the appearance of different sexual characteristics aligned with their gender. These changes are by nature cosmetic as it is not possible to change your biological sex as it is defined by your chromosomes. An individual with XX chromosomes cannot, for example, have a functioning penis & testes with the capacity to produce sperm, ejaculate and impregnate a woman, this being the primary function of these reproductive organs. Furthermore only a woman, an individual with XX chromosomes, can menstruate, produce ova, and grow a baby in their uterus.

"Woman" is a term typically referring to people of the XX biological sex or people with intersex chromosomes, whose sexual characteristics are (from a medical/clinical perspective) closest to those of a woman.

There are aspects of human life where it is necessary to provide facilities and services specific to biological sex. For example, bathrooms with facilities for sanitary equipment relating to menstruation. Women are also hormonally very different to men, with, on average, shorter stature, lower muscle mass etc, meaning they are vulnerable to physical domination by men, regardless of gender/appearance. It is therefore socially useful to segregate certain spaces for the protection of women.

In conclusion, gender and sex are different things, and the maintenance of the term "woman" to describe the XX biological sex is essential.

There is no problem in real life as far as I'm aware - just on here.

I think it is the old chestnut of people lashing out at things they don't understand. Depressing really.

I asked this question once on the feminism board and got lovely, helpful, informative answers to the question. Maybe if some of you weren’t so nasty more people would ask the questions that need to be asked to get more women on board.

Since there seems to be a lot of people with strong knowledge of trans issues/ where they impact feminism etc.
Could someone please answer this question-

People are called transphobic if they discriminate against trans people or if they refuse to accept that trans women are women.
Many trans women (but not all) say they are not trans women but women. They are therefore saying that being trans is a bad thing aren’t they and discriminating against it as I know that transwoman who say they are trans women and not women have been getting lots of abuse.
So surely this means the real transphobes are the TRAs?
Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

@DeRigueurMortis another good one! You’ll get shot for it but I personally couldn’t agree more!

[quote amijustparanoidorjuststoned]@catgirl1976 gosh, you sound delightful. Every human has a right to be who they want to be and to be respected for it.[/quote]
The right to be who they want to be?
Can I be black?
Can I be ethnically Japanese?
Can I be 6ft tall?
Nobody has the right to be something they objectively aren't. Transwomen have the right to identify as transwomen. That doesn't mean they are no longer men.

I think it is the old chestnut of people lashing out at things they don't understand. Depressing really. Not as depressing as wilful misrepresentation.

All that misinformation dressed up as sorrow! @BiggerBoat1 you need to do much better than that!

If you think the majority of GC posters here don't understand how trans and womens rights come into conflict you are dismissing the posts and thoughts of

Transposters - yes, some here are trans themselves, men and women
Spouses and children of trans individuals - there's a number of threads and lots of posters
Friends and colleagues of trans individuals posters like me, who have posted, on this thread and others, about how they have supported trans individuals, been ling term friends with trans individuals etc etc

You clearly don't want to acknowledge any of that! Why not, I wonder!

@BiggerBoat1

I understand that the girls at my school have had all their toilets taken away. All the loo blocks have been made mixed sex and the girls are too frightened to use them.

Because a shy 11 year old who has just started her period really wants to be washing blood off her hands in front of 16 year old boys.

And I also know that there are suddenly ten girls in our school who have changed their names and are wearing breast binders that are so tight one of them fainted in my lesson and another was sick.

Someone has taught them that being a woman is dirty and shameful and they are running away from it as hard as they can. And making themselves ill in the process. I feel utterly, utterly sick for them. They are beautiful, wonderful girls.

In real life I use their pronouns and new names and support them. But it kills me to watch them hurt themselves. I feel complicit in their self harm.

Because a shy 11 year old who has just started her period really wants to be washing blood off her hands in front of 16 year old boys

If she has to do that then the loo blocks are illegal

Can u you make an anonymous tip off?

Mixed sex toilets need to he fully enclosed units no gaps under doors etc

I understand that the girls at my school have had all their toilets taken away. All the loo blocks have been made mixed sex and the girls are too frightened to use them.

Because a shy 11 year old who has just started her period really wants to be washing blood off her hands in front of 16 year old boys.

This.

Can you not see that these examples are very real problems in real life @BiggerBoat1?

@amijustparanoidorjuststoned

If everyone has the right to be what they say they are, if I self-ID as a doctor, would you let me prescribe medication for you? What - not even if I put on a white coat and hang a stethoscope around my neck?

I don't think it would be unreasonable to ask transmen if they are prepared to use the men's, if men are okay with that. It's not a symmetric situation - males are statistically speaking a physical threat to females not vice versa. So it's not unreasonable to ask anyone who is male or might be perceived as male (and I'm talking trans men on T with full beard, nobody perceives butch presenting women as male, or the majority of transmen who haven't gone through the full drug regime) to stay clear of women's spaces in order that abusive men can be kept out or still seen as a red flag if they are in. That is not to say transmen or transwomen are a threat, but if you can't keep out transwomen you can't keep out lying non trans men so there's little point in having single sex facilities in the first place.

Obviously there is nothing objective about transmen that isn't female so they are welcome in the women's if they prefer. Subject to drug rules in the case of sport. They may well feel more comfortable in a unisex facility and I'd support a campaign for those to be made more widely available.

It is not possible to set rules on the basis of passing - that's entirely a matter of opinion. It's not possible to set boundaries as one friend suggested on the basis of "looking like you're making an effort" - you'd be enforcing stereotypes on transwomen that you'd never expect from women. It is not possible to set rules on the basis of identity as any opportunist flasher can declare he feels female today. The only possible boundary that can be set is sex.

Mixed sex toilets need to he fully enclosed units no gaps under doors etc

I think sinks can be in the open shared areas though? And that's one of the problems with the logistics of this. The uniquely female experience of panicking as a self conscious teen when we get blood on our hands during our period and wait until it sounds quiet to wash it off in the sink. It's hard enough for some girls without there being both male pupils around too in mixed sex loos.

Unisex facilities as a third space alternative that is. Or even female/unisex, but I don't think many women would want to walk past urinals so perhaps they'd need to be further screened off.

@SarahTancredi

The cubicles have floor to ceiling doors but the only sink is a long communal trough.

They technically aren’t mixed sex because the school didn’t put any signs up after they were redone. We just can’t enforce which side of the loo block the pupils use.

Thus the school gets around the law. I think this was accommodate a particular student whose parents were threatening to go to the papers.

Many members of staff are fully on board with them and think they are a great step for equality 😖

I'm pretty sure if the sinks are shared that's against regulations

Backseat, no, I think under the rules the basin also has to be in the enclosed area. A local park has this type of loo, I like it, it feels very safe and there's room to take a pram inside if you need to.

oh yes a brilliant step for equality. Girls just adore wiping piss off the seats akd worrying someones gonna shove them into the cubical and no one able to see 2 sets of feet..

Bet there's suddenly extra staff available to supervise ? Wonder y that is...

@RachelGreen45

Thank you - though I think it's a sad indication of the situation that anything I posted is even slightly questionable or perceived to be inappropriate.

I asked some simple questions about rights.

That's what's at the heart of this issue.

Do a minority of men have the right to trample over a century's worth of hard won women's rights to safe spaces so their feelings are not hurt and by extension do they they get to encourage an ideology that not only prevents women taking about this but worse still, the use of children to support their goals that results in irreversible life changing medications and surgery?

Here is some useful information for you. I would also suggest you follow Munroe Bergdorf on social media should you wish to educate yourself further (I suspect not). HTH.

Yes, because I really want to be 'educated' by Munroe Bergdorf about what a woman is ........

@BiggerBoat1

There is no problem in real life as far as I'm aware - just on here.

I think it is the old chestnut of people lashing out at things they don't understand. Depressing really.

I've spent far too much of my spare time on this issue for about 4 years. I'm far from not understanding. I understand better than the vast majority of trans activists.

This is (one of) my problem(s) with it:

Transwomen - "please don't call us transwomen, we feel it invalidates our identities. Please call us women as that is what we are."

Society - "oh gosh! Yes, of course! So very sorry!"

Natal women - "please don't call us cis women or menstruaters as we feel it invalidates our identities. Please call us women as that is what we are."

Society - "SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU TRANSPHOBIC TERF PIECE OF SHITS!"

No one has an issue with trans people. We have an issue with the systematic erosion of long fought for women's rights to be recognised, valued and kept safe for what we are.

Hmm, true, I've only been there when there was a queue, so no possibility of anyone getting shoved anywhere. Third space options seem only fair though.