What’s the problem with Trans?

[Karenista]

Posting for traffic:
Can someone please take the time to explain to me what the issue is with trans women? Or trans rights in general?

I consider myself a feminist, but since reading all the posts about publicly ‘coming out as GC’, I now feel... almost... not feminist enough because I believe in trans rights.

Where’s the middle ground? Or am I now going to feel alienated from ‘GC feminists?’

It's about protecting spaces, both real and virtual, and also what a 'woman' is and what a 'man' is. Once you get into definitions other than the biological we're basically in fairyland. I can identify as the Emperor Napoleon if I want to - that doesn't make me him.

@GrouchyKiwi

Hi *@Karenista*

This thread is a great place to start: Break it down for me

@GrouchyKiwi thank you!

@netflixismysidehustle

People who believe in God respect that others are atheist and vice versa. There's no attempt by either side to change the other persons mind.

Many activists who believe that gender trumps biology think that people who think the opposite are bigots and need to change their views to their side immediately. Why can't people think that biology trumps gender?

Exactly. People are entitled to believe what they want. That's important. They are not entitled to abuse others who disagree with them, hound them out of their jobs, call them bigots and all the other hideousness we see. And if they think that type of behaviour is more likely to make women move over and say yes of course, welcome into our safe spaces, they are distinctly lacking in...something.

Fortunately at the moment that type of behaviour is peak transing people all over the place who were just being nice and had no idea.

@Karenista
This article in The Scotsman really helped clarify for me what this debate is all about
www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/why-feminists-me-stand-jk-rowling-trans-rights-row-susan-dalgety-2910085

AmIJustParanoid

Im a middle aged white mum.
Can i identify as black, then?
What about disabled? Can i claim PIP if i identify as disabled?
Can i claim Im 76 and get my pension too?

Is that a human right, to be seen and trested as you wish to be?

[quote amijustparanoidorjuststoned]@DancingLady hi, there is much evidence to suggest that trans people are less likely to be allowed access to education because of discrimination.[/quote]
You're gonna have to cite some sources here. I think you'll find trans people have no problem accessing FE and HE at all - one of the most liberal and 'woke' environments there is!

Hi amijust I'm still waiting for a link to stats about trans people being discriminated against in further ed. Thanks!

The religious/atheist comparison is an interesting one. I had many online disagreements with religious fundamentalists in the 90s and 00s. They became very heated. Each of us told the other that they were wrong. I'd have said they were, at the time, the most heated debates I had ever had on the internet. But at no point did anyone accuse me of invalidating their existence as a Christian.

The equality monitoring is an important one. Monitoring is important so that we can measure whether any of the protected groups are being discriminated against, and take action to address it.

I never understand why so many trans activists want to drop sex and gender reassignment as measured characteristics and just have gender instead. I'm constantly seeing it on forms everywhere.

Conflating the two completely separate characteristics surely means that not only can we not measure sex discrimination, but we also can't measure gender reassignment discrimination?

How can organisations protect transgender people from discrimination effectively if they are not measuring that category separately?

Baffles me.

amijust stiiiiilllll waaaiiitttiinng. Take your time. And no a twitter screenshot doesn't count.

@PheasantPlucker1 you're a middle class, white woman. You can be anything you want to be! :)

[quote Timetospare]@Karenista
This article in The Scotsman really helped clarify for me what this debate is all about
www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/why-feminists-me-stand-jk-rowling-trans-rights-row-susan-dalgety-2910085[/quote]
@Timetospare brilliant, thank you!

Is someone being 'less likely' to have access to something (a bit of a nebulous term) necessarily exclusively a rights issue? I am 'less likely' to be picked for the England football squad than Marcus Rashford. That's nothing to do with my rights, and everything to do with being rubbish at football.

@DancingLady

Hi amijust I'm still waiting for a link to stats about trans people being discriminated against in further ed. Thanks!

You won’t get any actual stats.

The key is to claim victimhood in as many arenas as possible without providing any actual hard evidence.

@amijustparanoidorjuststoned

You're talking cockcustard, hun!

I'm calling it: amijust you have no evidence of your claims. So you're going to ignore my requests for stats/link. And instead you'll just troll posters.

But yeah, keep telling yourself that you're one of the 'good' feminists.

Here is one of the biggest things

Both of these people are women.... if you say otherwise you’re a terf

Very appreciative of the link to further reading.

[quote amijustparanoidorjuststoned]@catgirl1976 gosh, you sound delightful. Every human has a right to be who they want to be and to be respected for it.[/quote]
I didn't see anything in her post that suggested otherwise? Can you elaborate?

[quote amijustparanoidorjuststoned]@PheasantPlucker1 you're a middle class, white woman. You can be anything you want to be! :)[/quote]
That doesn’t make any sense at all.

@CaptainCorellisPangolin

Trans people have the same rights in lawas I do. We each have the right to access spaces such as toilets, changing rooms and refuges in accordance with our biological sex. We have the same rights with regard to education, employment, housing and healthcare. We can both change our names and dress as we like (I do realise that a lot of workplaces do have different rules as to what men and women can wear, however, and I would fully support a gender neutral dress code within workplaces)

The difference is that trans people believe that their innate "gender" differs to their biological sex and some would like areas such as changing rooms to be separated on the basis of gender (by self ID) rather than sex. I do not agree that a biological male should be able to, on a whim, self identify his way into a space reserved for women.

This is really eloquently put.

In my opinion it's 'self identification' that is the issue - there needs to be some safeguard.

I would have no problem sharing a female space with a genuine trans woman, but I would obviously have a problem with a man pretending to be trans to access that space. I don't really know how you definitively tell the difference but I'd imagine it involves counselling, a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, etc - not just self identification.

Still don't know what 'coming out as GC' means - can anyone clarify?

Equality monitoring, for example, it seems to me that so called trans rights activists are actively campaigning against protection for trans people. They don't want people to be recorded as transwomen for example, they want them to be recorded as women.

At which point you no longer know if they're being discriminated against for being trans. Or if women are being discriminated against for being biologically female. If the protected characteristic becomes "gender" then a woman can be unfairly selected over a better qualified transwoman on the basis of transphobia, and it can't be challenged under equality law because both are gender-woman. Or conversely a transwoman selected over a woman because of sexism (potential to get pregnant say) and again, no equality law challenge, they both belong to the same class.

The current position, where both sex and gender reassignment are protected characteristics, gives trans people better protection against discrimination, and is broadly supported by GC people.

I think the reason they are doing it is that they want the single sex exemptions to become single gender exemptions, but can't directly campaign for that as it's obviously batshit.

Basically @Karenista, being pro-trans makes you more of a feminist. So please don't worry, you're one of the good ones

Ah, the feminist police is here. Policing who is a good feminist, and who isn't, according to men and the woke 😂

@DancingLady First and Foremost, calm yourself. If you can't wait a few minutes for me to source some information for you WHILST I'm cooking dinner, creating a Powerpoint presentation for work AND dealing with you transphobes, perhaps you should take a look at what is making you so unhappy in your life?

Here is some useful information for you. I would also suggest you follow Munroe Bergdorf on social media should you wish to educate yourself further (I suspect not). HTH.